copyrights

[teachnlearn]

Years ago there was an article of a day care that painted Disney characters on the walls for the kids. Disney found out and immediately made them paint their walls. I think Disney made a mistake. They should have sent some artist to punch up the artwork, add some characters, and show the community its about the kids rather then the money. Wonder if Walt Disney would have done it differently? RJF

[Roq]

47 minutes ago, teachnlearn said:

... They should have sent some artist to punch up the artwork, add some characters, and show the community its about the kids rather then the money...

Think about the liability Disney would have had if they took on that project. Everything from are the walls sound, lead abatement if present, contractor licensing, insurance, blah blah blah.

Now lets figure cost of transportation, food & lodging for the team. 

If you do it there will be hundreds if not thousands of day care centers, schools and others trying to get you to do the same for them. And the executive decision is...

drum roll please...

 

 

 

Sorry you have to repaint your walls.

[MrsN]

There are quite a few scary copy write stories on the internet. I wouldn't be supprised if they were started by Disney/Harley lawyers.

If this story is true, the fact that the artwork was displayed in a public place is probably key to the decision to go with a lawsuit instead of just warnings.

[teachnlearn]

19 hours ago, Roq said:

Think about the liability Disney would have had if they took on that project. Everything from are the walls sound, lead abatement if present, contractor licensing, insurance, blah blah blah.

Now lets figure cost of transportation, food & lodging for the team. 

If you do it there will be hundreds if not thousands of day care centers, schools and others trying to get you to do the same for them. And the executive decision is...

drum roll please...

 

 

 

Sorry you have to repaint your walls.

Grizzly gave a disabled vet a entire shop of equipment. I doubt they will give every disabled vet a fully shop. They used their discretion to assist.  I doubt travel, food and lodging for a team would even be noticed by a billion dollar corporation. Walt Disney use to take entire teams of artists to other countries for months to study animal movements and details. There are many examples of people on this board, lowering costs or giving a toy to a child. Acts of kindness don't always have to be about the money. I've helped many disabled, design and built adaptions on my own expense, recognizing the person and their family couldn't afford it. I sure couldn't design and build everything for free myself, and  "I don't have billions of dollars.". RJF

Edited January 15, 2020 by teachnlearn

[Roq]

12 hours ago, teachnlearn said:

Grizzly gave a disabled vet a entire shop of equipment. I doubt they will give every disabled vet a fully shop. They used their discretion to assist.  I doubt travel, food and lodging for a team would even be noticed by a billion dollar corporation. Walt Disney use to take entire teams of artists to other countries for months to study animal movements and details. There are many examples of people on this board, lowering costs or giving a toy to a child. Acts of kindness don't always have to be about the money. I've helped many disabled, design and built adaptions on my own expense, recognizing the person and their family couldn't afford it. I sure couldn't design and build everything for free myself, and  "I don't have billions of dollars.". RJF

You skipped over my main point being liability. Disney is an entertainment company not a contracting firm. Walt died in 1966, we live in a sue happy world now. Companies with huge assets have enough lawsuits going without going out of their way to add more. Look at UPS. You will never see anyone running around town with an old UPS truck. Why? They crush every retired truck to avoid the liability they would incur if they sold them.

Good on Grizzly for hooking up a vet. No doubt there was legaleze signing for the vet to accept the offer.

Lowering costs or giving a child a toy is a totally different scenario until, God forbid, the child chokes on / gets injured by the toy or part there of. Liability doesn't go away because you made less on or gave away your product.

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, Roq said:

You skipped over my main point being liability. Disney is an entertainment company not a contracting firm. Walt died in 1966, we live in a sue happy world now. Companies with huge assets have enough lawsuits going without going out of their way to add more. Look at UPS. You will never see anyone running around town with an old UPS truck. Why? They crush every retired truck to avoid the liability they would incur if they sold them.

Good on Grizzly for hooking up a vet. No doubt there was legaleze signing for the vet to accept the offer.

Lowering costs or giving a child a toy is a totally different scenario until, God forbid, the child chokes on / gets injured by the toy or part there of. Liability doesn't go away because you made less on or gave away your product.

Very well worded, 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

7 hours ago, Roq said:

You skipped over my main point being liability. Disney is an entertainment company not a contracting firm. Walt died in 1966, we live in a sue happy world now. Companies with huge assets have enough lawsuits going without going out of their way to add more. Look at UPS. You will never see anyone running around town with an old UPS truck. Why? They crush every retired truck to avoid the liability they would incur if they sold them.

Good on Grizzly for hooking up a vet. No doubt there was legaleze signing for the vet to accept the offer.

Lowering costs or giving a child a toy is a totally different scenario until, God forbid, the child chokes on / gets injured by the toy or part there of. Liability doesn't go away because you made less on or gave away your product.

The problem with your logic you can apply this to each and every person that has ever made an item or has done any type of work for someone else. Every piece you make and or give away or sell can have those same effects so when you get into bed with the business end you better have the insurance to back you up. Something to think about. When is the responsibility ever on the other guy. You are right about one thing we are a sue happy world. But Happy Scrolling. 

[kmmcrafts]

On the etsy forums a couple years back.. there was a shop being sued for a customer that cut themselves opening the box after the mail delivered it... LOL.. You're right... Sue happy world we live in... I do suggest one get at least some sort of a liability insurance if you sell your stuff... even just a minimal policy to help cover cost.. 

I ever followed up on the topic to see what ever become of it.. seems like it would be thrown out... but then... it could have been the insurance company going after to recover their payout cost.. My daughter several years back got hurt on a quad 4 wheeler at her friends house.. Noting major just a sprain nothing broken etc... The insurance wanted to know all the details and the people names etc where she was hurt etc etc.. looking to see if it was a sue worthy case probably.. So.. it may not always be the person suing.. it could be insurance companies behind it all.. when it comes to liability stuff...

[teachnlearn]

I think there is a difference between company's doing kind acts and liability. Just existing as a company there has to be insurance. With Disney parks they have had massive suits. Companies do many programs to give back to communities, even individuals. If you consider every action as possibly being sued your going to stop doing anything. 'Backing out of your driveway is a liability, I think you should keep the car in the garage.' 'Helping a neighbor, they may sue, don't do it.'. Businesses and individuals have insurance and there are lawyers to handle liability.

Anyone cut themselves on a scroll blade? You can either put a band aide on your finger or sue the manufacturer. If people are going to sue, they are going to sue. A part of a brand new bike broke and wrapped into the wheel of my sons bike. He went right over the handle bars. We were in the Navy so the Navy hospital xrayed and patched the scrapes. Called the mgr and let them know they had material problems with their bikes. They investigated, sent a new bike and no suit was ever discussed. Was more concerned other kids would be hurt.

My comment on Disney is more of companies going to extremes. Surfing the net for any artist that hand paints a character, or paints a favorite character in a child's room..There is no way an artist can paint thousands of copies to cut into a business profit.

I miss the logic on giving a toy to a child. If they choke on the toy given has a different liability then a toy bought? I think every parent has read the label, ' MAY CONTAIN SMALL PARTS, KEEP AWAY FROM YOUNG CHILDREN'. RJF

[Roq]

2 hours ago, teachnlearn said:

My comment on Disney is more of companies going to extremes. Surfing the net for any artist that hand paints a character, or paints a favorite character in a child's room..There is no way an artist can paint thousands of copies to cut into a business profit.

I miss the logic on giving a toy to a child. If they choke on the toy given has a different liability then a toy bought? I think every parent has read the label, ' MAY CONTAIN SMALL PARTS, KEEP AWAY FROM YOUNG CHILDREN'. RJF

Many of Disney's characters are trademarked. If Disney fails to go after unauthorized use of a registered trademark they can lose the mark thereby losing big money that then hurts things like this https://www.thewaltdisneycompany.com/philanthropy/

As I said the liability doesn't go away. Lowering cost or giving a child a toy is way different than sending out a team of artists to paint some walls.

Just because a toy has the label does not mean the maker can't be sued. 

[Scrappile]

Ha!  Copyrights probably leads the field of the most posted about.  I read and read more and I know no more about it than I ever did.  I know it is not wise to infringed on someones copyright... but am still not sure what real infringement is.  I haven't been sued yet, so I will keep doing what I do.  I guess if I sold items or gave lots away I would be more worried, but as like as I keep making items no one wants,,, I think I am safe.  I am also convince a that a lot of people that write about it, really don't know much more than I do......      Now I am in trouble.....

Edited January 16, 2020 by Scrappile

[Puzzleguy]

One word of advice -

Never, Never mess with Disney .

[Lucky2]

Sometimes, and just sometimes, some of these companies will pick some poor schmuck trying to make a few dollars off of their copyright out of the crowd just to teach other's a lesson. And when they do this, they take them to court to sue them. The only reason that they do this, is to teach everyone a lesson. The lesson? Don't mess with our trademark/copyrighted items, they are ours and we don't want to share them. Now I don't know if this is true or not, but a lawyer told me that this is how it works. Charge one, scare most other's once the word gets out about the charges.

 

Len

[BadBob]

I received a takedown notice for one of my Etsy listings. A Company in Germany owned a word that I used in my description. It was a pain, and I had to redo the listing. It cost me twenty cents and the hours to find and correct backlinks. After that, I went through all my listings and removed any words that look like they might be trademarks. When I emailed other toymakers, I know a warning about what happened to me I found that the same law firm had hit several of them. I sell internationally, and this happened after Etsy staged one of my listings on a server in Europe.

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah I've mentioned many other topics about this... with selling online.. if the wording used is a trademark name or a copyright then they go after you for those words used.. Years ago there was a topic in the etsy forums about someone used the word Hello Kitty.. but what they was selling was nothing to do with the actual Hello Kitty.. They still took it down... because.. they was bringing in all kinds of traffic to their etsy shop based on those words..  Wording titles and descriptions is very important to get seen but also have to be careful of the words used.. as you found out..

[Wichman]

3 hours ago, BadBob said:

I received a takedown notice for one of my Etsy listings. A Company in Germany owned a word that I used in my description. It was a pain, and I had to redo the listing. It cost me twenty cents and the hours to find and correct backlinks. After that, I went through all my listings and removed any words that look like they might be trademarks. When I emailed other toymakers, I know a warning about what happened to me I found that the same law firm had hit several of them. I sell internationally, and this happened after Etsy staged one of my listings on a server in Europe.

A few years ago a Earopean design person adopted the name "Montana" and built a brand around that name, then he sued the State of Montana for trademark infringement. He lost, but he did sue.

 

[Wichman]

My question in all of this is how do you keep it all straight?  Sue May has a term of use that states 10 items per pattern may be made,, then it is expected that you will buy another pattern for an additional 10 items; more than 20 items requires a commercial license.

I've got a book of fancy designs for mailboxes, 200 of any design is the limit.

I've got other patterns that have no limit.

Still other with a 10 item limit.

How in the heck am I supposed to keep track of all this.

No seriously, if I am doing this as a business and am in the public eye...When (not if) the lawyers call/write how am I supposed to prove I've stayed within the terms of  use for all the items I am making and selling?

[kmmcrafts]

20 minutes ago, Wichman said:

My question in all of this is how do you keep it all straight?  Sue May has a term of use that states 10 items per pattern may be made,, then it is expected that you will buy another pattern for an additional 10 items; more than 20 items requires a commercial license.

I've got a book of fancy designs for mailboxes, 200 of any design is the limit.

I've got other patterns that have no limit.

Still other with a 10 item limit.

How in the heck am I supposed to keep track of all this.

No seriously, if I am doing this as a business and am in the public eye...When (not if) the lawyers call/write how am I supposed to prove I've stayed within the terms of  use for all the items I am making and selling?

 

Selling online all records are kept of your sales right down to what the items are, how much sold for and to what state. / country etc etc. Basically the receipts for every sale.. the customers name email etc etc etc is all in this along with all shipping info tracking numbers date of delivery etc etc.. I can go in and download the sales data from 2010 when i first started on etsy just playing around back in the day .. This is why I solely sell online... I also do not rely on this to be available. so i download these each year and keep copies in my safe..  

I file the patterns I make and sell into a file as well with all the legal limit info in them..

What I would like to know though... How can "They" prove how many you sold.. Since this info isn't available to the public.. and only you OR (under legal situations Etsy / Amazon  ) can access this info.. You see... They cannot come after you unless they are the copyright owner.. how can they come after you if they cannot access the info about how many you made.. and sold etc? 

[rjweb]

With all this copyright stuff, aren't the military items copyrighted also, because i see a lot of them being made and sold at craft shows, even Steve Good has them in his pattern catalog, RJ

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

36 minutes ago, rjweb said:

With all this copyright stuff, aren't the military items copyrighted also, because i see a lot of them being made and sold at craft shows, even Steve Good has them in his pattern catalog, RJ

Yep now add the fact in there that you and I are the military. You will not solve this copyright stuff or get any straight answers Like I said GREY area. No matter weather you sell on line or in person. Selling on line just means more eyes on you and if those selling sites have rules above and beyond copyright laws that is their right and you need to obey. We all have stories of violators and I have seen my share of people asked to take down their displays from Disney, Harley, and college sports and just use of names and the list can go on. I seen military  pens come into question. I am not going out of my way to violate what I know but if i do not I am not losing sleep over it.  The longer you stay in the business the more you learn so good luck.  

[Roq]

Nothing Grey about it. Military logos are Trademarked and you need a license to sell the ones that they allow.

https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Trademarks/DOD Guide about use of seals logos insignia medals-16 Oct 15F.PDF

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, Roq said:

Nothing Grey about it. Military logos are Trademarked and you need a license to sell the ones that they allow.

https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Trademarks/DOD Guide about use of seals logos insignia medals-16 Oct 15F.PDF

If you say so. Now go through all the vendors that sell military patterns and see if they have a license and if they do then what??  Not so black and white any more is it?? Same goes for those that make military pen blanks. To me all is Grey but who am I. I still make my military clocks and will till I give it up all together. 

[Roq]

1 hour ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Now go through all the vendors that sell military patterns and see if they have a license and if they do then what?? 

If they do have a license they are legal and have nothing to worry about. If they don't have one they are breaking the law. There is nothing grey about it, the laws are readily available on line to educate yourself. You can keep your eyes closed because you've gotten away with it for 35 years and maybe will till you give it up. Or maybe you cry the blues after your next show.

Hopefully I enlightened at least 1 person here, but I am done with this thread.

[kmmcrafts]

I had the Navy sign taken down by etsy...  They wasn't a good seller so I didn't fight it.. They are a Keith Fenton pattern.. I contacted Keith about the issue.. I still do not know if I was in the wrong or not.. as after about three weeks etsy contact me and says they removed a lot of "Navy " stuff and some of it was wrong on their part...apparently they just went and did a search for Navy and started removing stuff.. 

I was always under the thought that you couldn't use their logos but could use the names... I've never used their logos.. Keith was blown away about it and said they do everything they can to not do patterns that might be an issue... I don't know whether or not you can use the military names or not..  Keith still offers the sign patterns on their site.. and has since made many other military things.. Sue Mey has Military ornament crosses..  I've never relisted the sign on etsy.. I do have the other military branches on there.. In searching all I find about copyright and trademark is info about the logos... so this in particular is a grey area for me.. as well as many other things.. I guess I need to read the link Roq posted.. maybe that will enlighten me.. Thanks for posting that.. I wish it was easier to find this type of info online for other things..

 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

9 hours ago, Roq said:

If they do have a license they are legal and have nothing to worry about. If they don't have one they are breaking the law. There is nothing grey about it, the laws are readily available on line to educate yourself. You can keep your eyes closed because you've gotten away with it for 35 years and maybe will till you give it up. Or maybe you cry the blues after your next show.

Hopefully I enlightened at least 1 person here, but I am done with this thread.

If they have the license and now you start making that pattern and now someone approaches you and tells you that you can not sell the project how does that make it right??  We take patterns from many sources and try keeping those records. When you say there is nothing grey about it you are kidding yourself. Then you need to stop scrolling all together because everything you cut has some sort of links back to a copyright infringement. You do not have to believe me and I am not going to argue with you. I am stating my point of view. I know military stuff has copyright implications because I have brought it up here way before you mentioned it. This topic comes up many times here and is usually spurred on by an article someone reads that states someone got caught doing something probably they did not even know they were violating any laws. Most of these things are innocent instances . This comes up alot in the pen turning world too. I will give you an example and you can tell me is it right or wrong. You buy a military watch that has the Navy insignia on it, you paid the copyright fee because somehow that is included in the price. Watch stops working and cost too much to fix. Now throw it away or being a pen maker repurpose it and use the dial and watch inner parts to make a pen blank cast in resin or a shaving brush or something else. Is it legal to sell??? You already paid for the item in which it was intended use and it has no more value to the average person but your talents can take it and continue another life for it just as if you found a stick on the road and made it into a pen blank. This stuff gets batted around many times on pen turning sites because many people do the same with Disney watches. I have yet to hear from a true copyright lawyer on the findings of things like this and until I do what gets said here and other sites is what people read and hear so to me GREY area. I will continue with military patterns I bought from reliable sources and yes 35 years doing shows and selling in highend stores. I have been at shows where the Disney people, Harley People College people and even VFW people have walked shows. I hope I enlightened one person too.