Strange finishing problem

[Badgerboy]

In 30+ years of woodworking I never experienced this issue.  I cut a giraffe puzzle for my granddaughter out of hard rock maple. I stained the pieces with General Finishes water based dye stain (yellow) and let the stain dry for 3 Plus days. I added the brown spots with a crayola waterbased marker. Finally I then finished the piece in Watco Danish oil clear. 
 

My son is telling me my granddaughters hands get yellow when she plays with the puzzle. Any ideas or wisdom?

[dgman]

Hey Todd. You say you finished with Watco Danish oil, but that is not a finish. What it does is it brings out the natural beauty of the wood, bit that is not a finish. You need to apply a topcoat. The topcoat will protect and seal the wood. By using a water based stain you did not need to use the Danish oil. I use a rattle can semi gloss lacquer. Poly will work as well as Shellac. 

[kmmcrafts]

Danish oil is a finish and has poly in it.. BUT.. it's not a very large amount of poly.. you'd have to dip and dry it 4-5 times to get about the same as 1-2 coats of spray poly on it.. On certain projects I do top coat with another 1-2 coats of poly..but very few of them.. and usually if I'm not in a rush to get a order out.. I will dip a project 2-3 or sometimes more times to get a poly build up on it.. spray finishes do not get evenly coated and sealed in fret cutouts.. hence the dipping several times is a better choice IMHO...

That said.. Danish oil is not a good choice for "top coating" as Dan said.. but it is a finish 

[John B]

What Dan said Tod.
Oils can be thought of as a finish eg they are used as a top coat, however they do not seal and make a very soft, non wearing coating. What I believe has happened is the oil has lifted either the stain, but more probably the water based marker and thus has allowed it to be transferred to the nippers hands. I would use a polyurethane, or water based clear top coat or lacquer to seal in the colour and give a durable finish.
I personally don't like the water based stains very much,
The giraffes puzzle looks nice.

[Badgerboy]

Thanks for all the responses, guess I will have to get the puzzle back and coat with some poly.  I appreciate your sharing of wisdom!

[kmmcrafts]

13 hours ago, dgman said:

Hey Todd. You say you finished with Watco Danish oil, but that is not a finish. What it does is it brings out the natural beauty of the wood, bit that is not a finish. You need to apply a topcoat. The topcoat will protect and seal the wood. By using a water based stain you did not need to use the Danish oil. I use a rattle can semi gloss lacquer. Poly will work as well as Shellac. 

 

6 hours ago, John B said:

What Dan said Tod.
Oils can be thought of as a finish eg they are used as a top coat, however they do not seal and make a very soft, non wearing coating. What I believe has happened is the oil has lifted either the stain, but more probably the water based marker and thus has allowed it to be transferred to the nippers hands. I would use a polyurethane, or water based clear top coat or lacquer to seal in the colour and give a durable finish.
I personally don't like the water based stains very much,
The giraffes puzzle looks nice.

Not trying to disagree with both of you about Danish oil not being a finish.. as when it comes to wood finishing I'm not educated at all.. I know very little about any of it.. other than I do know that poly is like a type of plastic built up coating..LOL

Over the years I've seen many topics about 50/50 BLO and mineral spirits and other oil treatments ( I use the word treatment because you all say they are not a finish  ) and in almost all the cases.. everyone says it's not a finish.. I've read discussions over the years where there was arguments about Danish oil specifically because most say it's not a finish.. but there are a handful of folks that say it is.. it has a small amount of poly in it which makes it different than other oils.. and I've seen arguments that it is a finish.. I tell people it is a finish but in a case of situation as the original topic here it's not a wise choice of finish because it doesn't have much poly in the mix therefor it isn't leaving a "top coat" protectant on it.. Some will say it isn't a sealer it's just a oil.. 

First off maybe we all have a different opinion of the definition of a finish? Maybe some use the word finish loosely? because both of you claim it's not a finish while I claim that it is.. and it also says so on the can.. as well as stating it is a sealer too..  I consider you all to know more than I about finishing wood.. Now if talking car finishes.. I know a bit about that.. since I worked the body shops for years.. other than the real new water based stuff I don't know that.. but anyway.. whats the reasoning you say it isn't a finish.. it says it is on the can..

Maybe it's because there is not a "build up" of finish on the surface? 

Being a autobody painter for years.. I don't like the spray finishes on fretwork type pieces.. I don't care how good of a sprayer you are.. it's really difficult to get a good even spray on ALL angles of the fret cutouts without loading it up big time on the main surface.. most sprayed fretwork looks great on the surface but to me the fret cutouts look terrible.. sometimes they'll look "OK" but I prefer the natural wood look with Danish oil finish on fretwork because of this.. I do like a nice cleared surface on a piece of furniture like a table etc.. but not for fretwork stuff.. Maybe it's my picky eye for spraying cars all those years that those fret cutouts don't have an even coat on like the rest of the piece has.. Even if I dip in Danish oil and then try to top coat it.. I don't like it.. I can clearly see a difference in the cutouts than the surface and it sticks out to me like a cut off thumb or something , LOL

So what's a "good" wood finish / sealer to protect a piece like my clocks I make? that isn't a sprayed finish.. Keep doing the Danish oil as i've been doing for years? I used to use beeswax / mineral oil mix.. but everyone said it's not a finish and will dry out over time.. it sorta made sense to me so I don't use it much at all anymore and went back to using Danish oil..as it's easy and it says finish and seals the wood.. I want to make top quality wood clocks.. that look good for years.. I have my own personal clock that I made back in 2008 that has the mineral oil and beeswax on it.. still looks like it did before.. I have another that I tried re-coating the beeswax on and it did look fresh ( wet looking so to speak ) for a few days but it still looks great otherwise.. we've dusted them with soap and water several times a year and in my opinion I almost feel like the Beeswax mix is a finish because of this.. but what do I know.. I do feel the look is more glowing or whatever with the beeswax mix.. over the Danish oil.. but I also want durability which I've been told would be better with the Danish oil.. so that's what I do now..

Picture of Waco oil to show it says Finish and sealer..

Again, not trying to argue with your statement it's not a finish.. I'm just trying to learn why you all say it.. what don't I know about it.

 

[Badgerboy]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

 

Not trying to disagree with both of you about Danish oil not being a finish.. as when it comes to wood finishing I'm not educated at all.. I know very little about any of it.. other than I do know that poly is like a type of plastic built up coating..LOL

Over the years I've seen many topics about 50/50 BLO and mineral spirits and other oil treatments ( I use the word treatment because you all say they are not a finish  ) and in almost all the cases.. everyone says it's not a finish.. I've read discussions over the years where there was arguments about Danish oil specifically because most say it's not a finish.. but there are a handful of folks that say it is.. it has a small amount of poly in it which makes it different than other oils.. and I've seen arguments that it is a finish.. I tell people it is a finish but in a case of situation as the original topic here it's not a wise choice of finish because it doesn't have much poly in the mix therefor it isn't leaving a "top coat" protectant on it.. Some will say it isn't a sealer it's just a oil.. 

First off maybe we all have a different opinion of the definition of a finish? Maybe some use the word finish loosely? because both of you claim it's not a finish while I claim that it is.. and it also says so on the can.. as well as stating it is a sealer too..  I consider you all to know more than I about finishing wood.. Now if talking car finishes.. I know a bit about that.. since I worked the body shops for years.. other than the real new water based stuff I don't know that.. but anyway.. whats the reasoning you say it isn't a finish.. it says it is on the can..

Maybe it's because there is not a "build up" of finish on the surface? 

Being a autobody painter for years.. I don't like the spray finishes on fretwork type pieces.. I don't care how good of a sprayer you are.. it's really difficult to get a good even spray on ALL angles of the fret cutouts without loading it up big time on the main surface.. most sprayed fretwork looks great on the surface but to me the fret cutouts look terrible.. sometimes they'll look "OK" but I prefer the natural wood look with Danish oil finish on fretwork because of this.. I do like a nice cleared surface on a piece of furniture like a table etc.. but not for fretwork stuff.. Maybe it's my picky eye for spraying cars all those years that those fret cutouts don't have an even coat on like the rest of the piece has.. Even if I dip in Danish oil and then try to top coat it.. I don't like it.. I can clearly see a difference in the cutouts than the surface and it sticks out to me like a cut off thumb or something , LOL

So what's a "good" wood finish / sealer to protect a piece like my clocks I make? that isn't a sprayed finish.. Keep doing the Danish oil as i've been doing for years? I used to use beeswax / mineral oil mix.. but everyone said it's not a finish and will dry out over time.. it sorta made sense to me so I don't use it much at all anymore and went back to using Danish oil..as it's easy and it says finish and seals the wood.. I want to make top quality wood clocks.. that look good for years.. I have my own personal clock that I made back in 2008 that has the mineral oil and beeswax on it.. still looks like it did before.. I have another that I tried re-coating the beeswax on and it did look fresh ( wet looking so to speak ) for a few days but it still looks great otherwise.. we've dusted them with soap and water several times a year and in my opinion I almost feel like the Beeswax mix is a finish because of this.. but what do I know.. I do feel the look is more glowing or whatever with the beeswax mix.. over the Danish oil.. but I also want durability which I've been told would be better with the Danish oil.. so that's what I do now..

Picture of Waco oil to show it says Finish and sealer..

Again, not trying to argue with your statement it's not a finish.. I'm just trying to learn why you all say it.. what don't I know about it.

 

Kevin, I thank you for your description and explanation and quite frankly I agree with all of it.  I believe this “disagreement”, as polite as it is, is about semantics.  It would be impossible to find an arbiter to declare a single answer here and the individual woodworkers intent or desire is of primary concern. While I agree that DO is not a hard finish it is intended to seal and with multiple dips will build up some poly.  If “hardness” or complete sealing of the wood fibers is a determinant of something being deemed a “finish” me thinks this conversation shall go on for a long time.
 

I appreciate your and others thoughts on this issue and believe I have a solution going forward. Conversation and civil debate is good and healthy, thanks to all for sharing their wisdom.

[Bill WIlson]

I have some thoughts on this subject and I'll try not to blather on longer than anyone has the patience to read.

I tend to consider a finish in its broader sense.  To me a finish is anything you apply to the wood after all the saw dust is made, which alters or enhances the appearance of the natural wood.  Finishes serve a couple main purposes.  They protect the wood from a variety of elements and they change the appearance in terms of color, grain contrast and/or sheen.  I like to sometimes refer to it as a finishing schedule.  It's a process that could encompass multiple operations and products that work together to create a final  result that meets the requirements of the project.

So in this context, a finish could refer to a stain, glaze, dye, grain filler, oil, wax, topcoat, or any combination thereof.

I admit I have often interchanged the usage of the term "finish" between the process and a given top coat.  As the name implies, a finish is the last thing you do to a project before calling it done, so I think either application is accurate. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Bill WIlson

[Crosstimbers]

I agree with Bill. I use Danish Oil as a finish frequently. As it states on the can “hardens in the wood, not on it.” I dip all my fretwork with Danish Oil. I tried spraying with lacquer but didn't have good success. By the time I got the interior edges coated, the top surface had an undesirable thick coating. Several years ago I built 4 large bookcases for a math professor. He didn't want a plastic feel, he said ”I want to feel the wood.” So I finished them with several coats of Dainish Oil and he loved the way it looked and felt. I wasn't sure at the time how well that type finish would hold up because he writes reference books and would be sliding books in and out on those shelves on a daily basis. So when I delivered them I told him to call me if the finish ever needs to be touched up. He has yet to call me so the Danish Oil must be holding up okay.

Last week I made two wall mounted shelves for a customer's office. The office had knotty alder wainscoting. I took them to his office before putting the topcoat on because I needed to see how well I was able to match the stain on the wainscoting. He liked the way they looked and wanted me to go ahead and put them on the wall. I said I haven't put the topcoat on yet. He said he didn't want a topcoat. They're his shelves, so my job (and the shelves) were finished.

[kmmcrafts]

Thanks guys for your input.. I've never thought of a finish as being the "last step" to a complete project.. maybe because in the auto finishing world there are cheaper finishes that aren't as good of a protect-ant from the elements than others are.. so I look at a wood finish as a sealer / protect-ant type thing..  but from your point of view it's just the last process of a project.. But in others eyes it's more like what I think of it as.. otherwise they wouldn't say a oil finish isn't really a finish.. 

I do realize that oil finishes can dry out over time.. and also realize there are better sealer / protect-ants than oil or Danish oil.. Myself.. I consider Danish oil to be one of the better ones because it has poly in it.. while I realize it may not be the best for protecting the wood.. I would think with the thin coat of poly in it.. it would be considered a better sealer etc.. than plain mineral oil or other oils like the 50/50 mix of BLO that everyone talks of..

I don't really want to get into the discussion of what finish is better than the other because I do realize that is going to be an opinion like saw blades or anything else that is opinion related.. I guess the wording used in these topics is what gets to me a bit because one says its not a finish but it says it is on the can.. 

Many claimed they would never finish a piece with the beeswax / mineral oil mix that I make.. I stopped using it because I thought maybe I was making a awesome clock but then applying a inferior or poor quality finish on it.. so I went back to the Danish oil.. Then I've also read where the beeswax is soaked into the wood and is a great finish.. a lot of turners use it.. Who knows.. the wax melted into the wood might give better protection than the Danish oil.. Either way.. I'm way too busy these days to go through the process of melting the beeswax mineral oil into the wood anyway so Danish oil is quick and easy..

 

[John B]

If you like you can finish something with water call it done, but it offers no protection, however it may bring out the grain.
When doing my apprenticeship and in the "polishing" segment ,a finish was an application that protected the article. Oils and waxes can be a "finish" but they offer little in the way of protection.  If the item is going to placed on a shelf in a non dusty area, they would suffice. Dust however does collect and penetrate oil and wax finishes. A true finish seals and protects the item from outside influences such as spills, dust etc and can be wiped and cleaned with no detrimental effect. Any finish that that allows the grain to remain open which includes oils and wax must be reapplied regularly to maintain it's purpose.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, John B said:

If you like you can finish something with water call it done, but it offers no protection, however it may bring out the grain.
When doing my apprenticeship and in the "polishing" segment ,a finish was an application that protected the article. Oils and waxes can be a "finish" but they offer little in the way of protection.  If the item is going to placed on a shelf in a non dusty area, they would suffice. Dust however does collect and penetrate oil and wax finishes. A true finish seals and protects the item from outside influences such as spills, dust etc and can be wiped and cleaned with no detrimental effect. Any finish that that allows the grain to remain open which includes oils and wax must be reapplied regularly to maintain it's purpose.

That is very well said and explained.. Thank you.. So it's just like car finishes.. The old car finishes such as Lacquer are not great paints.. they dry out over time and crack terrible which eventually exposes the primer and metal they protect well but not for very many years especially in sun and hot / cold climate swings.. Today's Urethane's can last several years.. People used to and some old timers still do put several coats of Lacquer when painting.. they thought it was better protection from fading away.. but in reality it just makes it more prone to crack and chip..  

So with all that said then oil finishes are a finish but inferior to certain elements.. and do not protect well from spills etc.. and that makes much sense to me.. 

Also makes much sense to me that a spray finish of poly also isn't going to protect very well on a fretwork piece because you cannot get "good coverage" in small fret cutouts.. and in my mind a oil type finish is probably going to protect the wood better than getting virtually no spray in those tiny tight cutout areas.. like dipping a project can.. or melting wax / oil mix in.. Wax repels water and seals off the grain pretty well at least the way I do it..  My personal clock project I made and finished with my beeswax / mineral oil mix has been dusted and cleaned by just wiping it with a damp cloth for years.. mostly every week.. and about 1-2 times a year I've actually ran in under water to get the fret cutouts cleaned of dust.. the water beads up on the surface still to this day when running water on it.. The stuff I use Danish oil on looks to me like the water gets soaked into the surface when doing that.. but it seems to dry out quickly and still looks good as well..

Thanks John for explaining this.. 

 

[Bill WIlson]

I believe that, much like with scroll saw blades, there really is no such thing as "the best" when it comes to finishes.  Sure, we can each have our favorite.  Nothing wrong with that.   There is an amazing array of different products out there.  I thing that it benefits all woodworkers to at least have a basic understanding of some of the different options available to us.  We may never use them all, but different finishes bring different things to the table.  All have their pros and cons.  Those pros and cons can vary from one project and one user to another.  Each of us has to find the best finish for us and the project we are working on.  It may not be the same for the next project, because that project may have different requirements.  I love sprayed shellac for fretwork.  It is my go-to, serving as sealer, colorant and topcoat in one.  But I wouldn't use it for a cutting board.

 

[kmmcrafts]

Bill, that is very true.. each of us have different expectations and also a different eye for detail etc.. there is no right or wrong way I suppose.. any finish applied would be better than no finish at all...