Excalibur Rebuild

[kmmcrafts]

Well today I started taking the saw apart.. I did a short video of how loud the saw is before I do the rebuild.. I have taken a lot of pictures that I'll probably put up later.. I have it almost put back together.. I  worked on this a good 6 hours or more.. and I'm still not done.. but real close to being done..

I'll say there is a big difference between the original EX parts and the China made stuff as far as tolerances.. I'll add more to this post later on to describe some of the issues I had and the tolerance things etc.. Meanwhile check out how sloppy and noisy this thing was in the video 

 

[Woodmaster1]

Looks like a big project I wouldn't want to take on. Good luck and I hope it's so quiet you don't know it is running.

[kmmcrafts]

Well I got it back up and running. Now I need to dial everything in and it should be ready to make sawdust. 
 

The job wasn’t too bad, I took it farther apart than I really needed to but I was also making other repairs than just the bearing assembly. 
 

I bought the whole assembly from Seyco. The pictures of the parts below. I’ll try to upload the instructions that came with the assembly since it’s just a few pages. I found them not very good because they was photo copy pages and the pictures was very poor. Since I can’t read words and the pictures was bad they might as well not sent them.

[Woodrush]

14 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Well today I started taking the saw apart.. I did a short video of how loud the saw is before I do the rebuild.. I have taken a lot of pictures that I'll probably put up later.. I have it almost put back together.. I  worked on this a good 6 hours or more.. and I'm still not done.. but real close to being done..

I'll say there is a big difference between the original EX parts and the China made stuff as far as tolerances.. I'll add more to this post later on to describe some of the issues I had and the tolerance things etc.. Meanwhile check out how sloppy and noisy this thing was in the video 

 

That's dissappointing from a new saw. It's no wonder they are selling them at dewalt prices right now. So glad I bought the king

 

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah it's been a frustrating machine for me for sure.. from day one of opening the box and setting it up it was issues.. starting with the blade chucks..  The Pegas chuck upgrade made the saw usable, LOL  

 

 

So I bought new rocker assemblies as well.. and they came with the blade chucks.. and these was what the biggest difference between the China made saw and the original EX saw that I had... See next set of photos..

 

These pieces that screw into the arm tubing of the saw are different size.. The China made saw they used a smaller tubing than the original EX

Here I'm trying to show a visual comparison of the size differences.. Also a few photos of where I measured them as well..

 

I ended up trying to grind enough of the bracket material away so they would fit into the tube of the arm.. Turns out.. once I get it to fit into the tube the mounting holes do not line up.. Note the photo above where I'm holding the two pieces.. one goes into the hole farther than the other.. so while I think the holes would have been lined up they didn't go into the tube far enough to put the screws back in.. and they was close enough that I wouldn't be able to re-drill and tap them either.. So thankfully the rocker assemblies was the same so I was able to swap the assemblies to the China made brakes and all worked out.. If not then I would have been stuck using the worn out bearings etc on the front part of the saw..

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by kmmcrafts

[OCtoolguy]

Bottom line Kevin, how much did end up costing to make your Chinese EX into a Pegas? Your original cost plus the new parts. Curious!

 

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Bottom line Kevin, how much did end up costing to make your Chinese EX into a Pegas? Your original cost plus the new parts. Curious!

 

Well Ray, It'll never be a Pegas because even the Pegas saws are different than the original EX saw.. Pegas upgraded the main drive bearing sizes for more strength and durability which is something many people don't think about.. They see a saw that "looks like" and assume it's the same thing.. My saw is "now" more like a original EX.. 

As for value.. I gave $340 for the saw .. upgraded chucks way back when they was on sale.. I think with shipping etc.. the chucks was $80.. Since then ( nearly three years ago ) I've put around 350 hours on the saw.. which is comparable to the usage I get from a DW-788..  The parts from Seyco run me $115 for the inside guts and $160 for the rocker assemblies..  So in all I have about $705 if I did my math right? lol  Depending where you buy a Pegas.. the cheapest I found with shipping charges etc. was $800..  I did manage to put about 400 total hours on it too..

That said.. Pegas wasn't around when i bought my saw back in Oct. 2017.. New EX's wasn't available then either.. though somehow the guy I got this from had a new seal box with one, LOL a few months later Home Depot had them.. and he worked for HD and supposedly won it in a raffle..  

Edited July 20, 2020 by kmmcrafts

[kmmcrafts]

Well today I run the saw to cut a couple clock orders.. The saw is a total different saw than what it was.. even when it was new... The new rocker assemblies came with the EX blade chucks.. Not sure anyone remembers the issues I had with the ones that came with the saw.. I often wondered if it was user error or something.. SO with that said.. I left the EX chucks on instead of putting the Pegas chucks on.. I wanted to assure myself that the chucks that came with the saw was defective or something.. Running the saw today I had no issues with the EX clamps.. I've determined the China made chucks have the hole drilled and tapped for the thumb / set screw is not in the correct position.. It is slightly forward.. and I was always having to fiddle with where to position the blade in order to clamp it.. If you put it all the way back to the back the thumb screw would miss the blade.. 

The EX clamps I got with my parts works very nicely.. though I do like the Pegas ones better and will probably swap them out at some point..

The saw runs really smooth and pretty quiet.. Over all I'm finally happy with it.. and actually quite impressed with how well it works.. I might have a new favorite saw, LOL..  I'll likely sell it and buy a Pegas  late this year early next year so long as business stays good and busy..

 

Here is another repair I did.. well heck I gotta get the photos off my phone so I'll come back and edit this in a few, LOL

So this is the repair of tightening up the adjustment knob at that back of the saw.... Probably nobody will ever take their saw apart to do this just for this reason.. but if you have issues with the back knob turning on its own and you take the saw apart for something else take the time to make this repair while you're in there..

 

 

See this little rectangle shape piece on the side of the back part of the saw.. This piece is threaded and the threaded rod where your knob is screws into it and pushes down on the back of the arm.. There is a small thicker piece of welded flat stock welded to the top of the arm and that is where the rod pushes onto it to adjust the upper arm for parallel.. I should have taken a photo of the  spot where the rod hits the upper arm.. from the thing turning on it's own for a long time it had actually worn a fairly deep indent into that plate that is welded onto the upper arm. 

 

Photo of the threaded block taken out of the saw...

 

 

Here is a photo of the block in the saw and it shows how the top smaller piece is screwed to the larger black piece to hold it from sliding out of the saw.. You have to unscrew that screw and take the top piece off before sliding that threaded part out of the saw.. I should have ordered a new one but it never crossed my mind as I did this repair once a while ago but thought I'd redo it since I had it torn down this far and easy access to it.. If you look close you can sort of see the round shiny spot where the rod rest on the upper arm.. I have the arm lifted almost straight up in the photo.. I'm not sure if I helped or hindered the thing from turning by itself because I added a spot of grease where that shiny spot is.. But I think the loc-tite will still hold it.. and this makes the knob turn much smoother than before. That might be a problem though if the loc-tite doesn't hold it, LOL

 

Photo of the screw and rod taken out and ready to remove the piece and clean it up good..for a new dose of loc-tite 

 

The bottom of the rod ll cleaned up and fresh loc-tite on the threads.. The threads are two step.. the bottom portion is smaller where the washer and lock nut go on to hold it from un-threading is out of the saw.. The portion with the blue loc-tite is where it threads into that block

 

 

Well hopefully all this info I put up on this will help someone someday should they take on a rebuild of a EX or similar saw.. Also hope this info might help someone that accidentally bought a China made saw and wonder if the parts from a original EX from Seyco will work with the China made saw... since Ray doesn't support these saws or parts for them..  Maybe there will be a flood of cheap China made EX saws in the used market that people got frustrated with and selling real cheap or free   never know you might run upon a garage sale one for $5-10.. could be worth building it if you're a tinker kinda person that likes doing this kind of thing... as long as all the electronics are good.. one could build their own saw like I did here and have a decent saw..

Edited July 21, 2020 by kmmcrafts

[Fish]

Mine won’t need this for quite some time but I’m gonna hang in to this To help when it does.  Thanks for helping.  

[Badgerboy]

I guess the biggest question that remains is when Kevs Independent Scrollsaw Repair Shop opens for business?

[OCtoolguy]

Like a dummy I got the email from SSV yesterday that recaps all the activity and after reading your post with all the pics, I replied to it. Forgetting that it was not SSV but an email. So my reply is floating around out there in the cloud. Anyway, what I said was, now that you have your saw all squared away and are as happy as I have been with my 2 EX's, you won't need to upgrade to a Pegas. That saw will last you a very long time unless you just ask it to do too much. I'm happy that you are now happy. Cheers.

 

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, Badgerboy said:

I guess the biggest question that remains is when Kevs Independent Scrollsaw Repair Shop opens for business?

I do enjoy tinkering with these saws.. I've rebuilt a lot of them over the years... mostly cheap older Delta's but also have rebuilt a Ryobi, Dremel and of coarse the DeWalts.. now Excalibur, LOL.. Be fun to do a job similar but the cost wouldn't be all that great for the owners.. unless they was like a short drive away from me or something.. Shipping them and parts prices etc.. you'd be best to buy a new one,  

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Like a dummy I got the email from SSV yesterday that recaps all the activity and after reading your post with all the pics, I replied to it. Forgetting that it was not SSV but an email. So my reply is floating around out there in the cloud. Anyway, what I said was, now that you have your saw all squared away and are as happy as I have been with my 2 EX's, you won't need to upgrade to a Pegas. That saw will last you a very long time unless you just ask it to do too much. I'm happy that you are now happy. Cheers.

 

I think you are probably right on that Ray.. The EX bearing and sleeve quality in the parts I received from Seyco was much tighter and smoother than any of the other saws I've taken down to rebuild.. When I rebuilt my DW788.. I bought all new bearings and quality ones.. new sleeves from Dewalt.. but the sleeves / bearings was still not as tight together as what these parts were that I got.. That saw lasted around 6 years of production cutting.. My DW788 was a type 2 so that could be a bit sloppy from the type 1 saw maybe..  whatever the case.. the saw runs really nice now and hoping it'll last long enough to pay for itself again.. 

Was thinking about painting my table.. not because I need to but the finish is worn off and even through the primer coat in some spots.. Only reason I thought about doing it is because I painted a Chevy Trailblazer a few years back and it's about the exact same color, LOL.. I think the Urethane two stage base / clear coat is a much higher quality paint than whatever they used on my saw..I'm not sure if it's because of the cheap China made saw thing or is it a Excalibur thing but only about 30 hours on the saw and much of the paint was worn off.. the primer seems to be holding up better than the actual paint did, LOL.. If I didn't already have the paint I probably wouldn't fuss with it.. Maybe won't anyway.. but just something I thought about while sawing today and happen to look up on my paint shelf and seen that can sitting there.. 

[OCtoolguy]

16 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I think you are probably right on that Ray.. The EX bearing and sleeve quality in the parts I received from Seyco was much tighter and smoother than any of the other saws I've taken down to rebuild.. When I rebuilt my DW788.. I bought all new bearings and quality ones.. new sleeves from Dewalt.. but the sleeves / bearings was still not as tight together as what these parts were that I got.. That saw lasted around 6 years of production cutting.. My DW788 was a type 2 so that could be a bit sloppy from the type 1 saw maybe..  whatever the case.. the saw runs really nice now and hoping it'll last long enough to pay for itself again.. 

Was thinking about painting my table.. not because I need to but the finish is worn off and even through the primer coat in some spots.. Only reason I thought about doing it is because I painted a Chevy Trailblazer a few years back and it's about the exact same color, LOL.. I think the Urethane two stage base / clear coat is a much higher quality paint than whatever they used on my saw..I'm not sure if it's because of the cheap China made saw thing or is it a Excalibur thing but only about 30 hours on the saw and much of the paint was worn off.. the primer seems to be holding up better than the actual paint did, LOL.. If I didn't already have the paint I probably wouldn't fuss with it.. Maybe won't anyway.. but just something I thought about while sawing today and happen to look up on my paint shelf and seen that can sitting there.. 

Well, both of the tables on my saws are still in very good shape and they have both been used. I think the Chinese saws are more cheaply made in every way possible. 

[Fred Buehler]

Kevin;

I received a EXx21 for fathers day. the biggest problem is vibration on higher speeds. It is made in China.  Your information on rebuild is excellent. 

Thanks for posting it.

[amazingkevin]

Love this post!!!

[kmmcrafts]

On 8/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, Fred Buehler said:

Kevin;

I received a EXx21 for fathers day. the biggest problem is vibration on higher speeds. It is made in China.  Your information on rebuild is excellent. 

Thanks for posting it.

Glad you enjoyed the topic.. big reason I went ahead with the rebuild was to see if the parts would work.. It's hopefully going to be beneficial to others that own the China made saw.. without a doubt there are going to be some people having issues with the bearings etc in the future.. 

As for your vibration.. have you turned the motor to adjust the blade movement? Mine was the same way but I was able to buy some time with it by rotating the motor slightly.. You might try it.. just to get by for a while..  

[Rolf]

Kevin, your timing on this post is perfect! I will be fixing my friends EX-21 as soon as she gets the parts from Ray. I believe her saw is an original EX.

 Like you I love to tinker and fix stuff, I actually got paid to do that for 35 years and 11 in the AF fixing flight simulators. 

Your pictures and suggestions are supper! THANKS

Edited August 13, 2020 by Rolf

[kmmcrafts]

I'm glad that I took on the project... Deep down I really just wanted to throw the saw away and buy a Pegas, LOL.. I still want to get a Pegas saw.. but I also felt that since there is no info on parts or repairs on the EX saws especially the China clone ones.. I was always curious how close to the same thing they was.. and if Ray could be a parts source.. or anyone else for that matter such as Pegas parts etc.. The only real difference I found was just the aluminum rocker arm mounts wouldn't it into the saw arm tubes.. 

I've been considering selling this saw now and get the saw I really would like to have and / try.. ( Pegas ).. Pegas did some upgrades to the bearings at the back of the saw.. My understanding is they put in larger higher quality bearings in the saw.. This is just what Bob Duncan has said.. I have no personal experience on this to know for sure if that is true or just a sales person talking up the product.. I'd like to know for sure.. and may buy a Pegas this fall and find out, LOL..

I think it was really a fairly easy task to rebuilt this saw.. but it is time consuming.. or for me it was.. Mostly because I have 2 boys that like my tools.. and also sometimes they like to leave them in the wrong drawer or in their car.. Took me a better part of a afternoon to do the rebuild.. Could have done it faster but I was in no hurry and was also carefully inspecting parts.. since I was doing a rebuild on a China clone with parts not really made for that saw..

So Far So Good With My Rebuild.. I've Got Around 30 Hours On The Meter Since The Rebuild.. 

[Fred Buehler]

The vibration on my EX21 occur above half speed and higher.  Not sure if there is a way to correct.

I was told the China saw tolerances  were not like the Taiwan saws, which could create the vibrations at higher speeds. 

 Not a good experience.

Fred B

[OCtoolguy]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:16 AM, Fred Buehler said:

The vibration on my EX21 occur above half speed and higher.  Not sure if there is a way to correct.

I was told the China saw tolerances  were not like the Taiwan saws, which could create the vibrations at higher speeds. 

 Not a good experience.

Fred B

Which saw do you have? Chinese or ??? Have you tried turning the motor to take the aggressiveness out of it? That may help some. Another thing is the Pegas blade clamps. They helped my saws and I have the good green saws made in Canada and Taiwan. I've no experience with the Chinese saws but Kevin has and after rebuilding his, it was better. 

[Fred Buehler]

I have the China made scroll saw.

I happy to report that General International is sending a new EX21.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They have insured me that before it is shipped they will

make certain there are no problems.

I am excited about there decision to help me.

Fred B.

[kmmcrafts]

41 minutes ago, Fred Buehler said:

I have the China made scroll saw.

I happy to report that General International is sending a new EX21.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They have insured me that before it is shipped they will

make certain there are no problems.

I am excited about there decision to help me.

Fred B.

That is awesome!! How did you get in contact with them? Or did you just go back to where you bought it?

[Fred Buehler]

My wife bought it through Amazon. I Could not get the 30 day rebate from Amazon i missed it by 5 days.

I  then sent to General International complaining about excess Vibrations and noise. I mention that it was a Fathers day Gift and i felt bad for my wife & daughters

as it was there money spent in good faith for a product. I think that may have embarrassed them. I called a few times telling them it was a gift  they should make it right.

I then recieved a email from a Jory Thomas of G.I.power products wanting to know more about my problem which i explained again i used that gift thing.

He suggested couple of things to try. I told him i had already tried these i seen  them on scroll saw Village forum. Again i think he realized that the forum was not a good thing for them.

Today i was told a new EX21was being shipped and it would gone over to insure that it would be a good machine. So i should see a new saw in a few days. I will keep you updated.

In my opinion mentioning to them that it was a Gift may have helped.  I am not to good at writing on Computer so i hope this makes sense.

I also found that Claim phone number was not correct my daughter found the correct number 1-844-877-5234.

[Rolf]

Kevin, I rebuilt my friends EX on Saturday.   As you said it is not that big of a deal if you have few tools small metric sockets and a mixture of inch and metric allen wrenches.

Just a heads up!

I have already posted some of this on the SSWWC forum.

A good friends EX-21, an old original green one, broke. She sent me a picture of the broken adjuster rod (since been eliminated in the newer designs) She ordered the parts from Ray and I told her I would install them. While she was at it she also ordered the Pegas clamps from Denny @Artcrafters.

This was my first tear down of an Excalibur. Since I keep hearing about dry bearings on these forums I decided to take every joint apart and re-lube the needle bearings. Good thing I did as they were ALL dry. The new linkage included the pitman arm and I immediately realized that it was just flopping around. The old one was almost seized. I took it apart and found the pin was rusty as were the needle bearings. Even if it had dried up grease they would not have been rusty.  This bearing has never seen grease.! When it was all re-assembled I adjusted the motor for the front back motion and re-aligned the table so that it was at 90 deg. when the alignment pin was pushed in. The saw runs great but I didn’t get to run it before it broke so I have no comparison.  She has a second saw of the same vintage and I will be rebuilding it also.. 

I am going to order a new needle bearing for the old pitman arm so that she has a spare.