Finish question

[OzarkSawdust]

I finished cutting these today, and dipped in Watco Danish Oil Natural for 1 minute. They have been drying in the shop (60*ish) for a couple of hours. The shop will probably be 50s most of the night. They are 1/8" Baltic Birch Ply.

For those of you that dip in Watco a lot....would you:

1. Call it good and ship tomorrow?

2. Dip a second time...how long? Ship tomorrow or Sat.?

3. Spray a topcoat? With what? Ship tomorrow or Sat.?

Thanks

Edited December 18, 2020 by OzarkSawdust

[kmmcrafts]

I have gotten complaints from customers in the past for the strong finish smell that Danish oil leaves when opening up their mail.. I now wait 3 days before mailing them out.. IF I need something to go out in the mail fast.. I use my homemade mix of mineral oil and beeswax.. Repeat customers have specifically asked for my mix as it smells good like.. well.. beeswax, LOL Applying the mix is a pain in the rear.. so I don't use it unless I have to anymore.. but used to be the only finish I used.. Just too time consuming for as busy as I am these days..

As to dipping in Danish oil... I leave them in the oil for 5-10 minutes.. take them out and lay them on several layers of paper towels.. let them sit for about another 10 minutes.. then I wipe the excess oil off of them and hang them to dry for 3 days before shipping them out.. I try to smell them close to my nose as I have a pretty good idea of when they are okay to ship.. I pretty much stock up on ornaments so most times they are drying for several months before the holidays.. and most anything I make that I know I'll be mailing out real soon.. I just use my homemade mixture.. Somewhere in my feed back on etsy a couple years ago I had a few comments about they smell good, LOL 

Anyway.. don't ship them if they are smelling pretty strong of Danish oil.. The mail carrier might even complain or refuse to ship them.. from my experience.. My mail lady and I are pretty tight and she mentioned to me a few years ago about the smell when I switched from the beeswax to the Danish oil.. Thankfully she was kind enough to just mention it rather than complain.. Some people are real sensitive to smell ( I'm one of those myself ). They don't smell strong in the wide open space.. but seal them up in a box for a few days and then open the box.. you'll get a good enough whiff to get high for a few seconds   

[OzarkSawdust]

22 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I have gotten complaints from customers in the past for the strong finish smell that Danish oil leaves when opening up their mail.. I now wait 3 days before mailing them out.. IF I need something to go out in the mail fast.. I use my homemade mix of mineral oil and beeswax.. Repeat customers have specifically asked for my mix as it smells good like.. well.. beeswax, LOL Applying the mix is a pain in the rear.. so I don't use it unless I have to anymore.. but used to be the only finish I used.. Just too time consuming for as busy as I am these days..

As to dipping in Danish oil... I leave them in the oil for 5-10 minutes.. take them out and lay them on several layers of paper towels.. let them sit for about another 10 minutes.. then I wipe the excess oil off of them and hang them to dry for 3 days before shipping them out.. I try to smell them close to my nose as I have a pretty good idea of when they are okay to ship.. I pretty much stock up on ornaments so most times they are drying for several months before the holidays.. and most anything I make that I know I'll be mailing out real soon.. I just use my homemade mixture.. Somewhere in my feed back on etsy a couple years ago I had a few comments about they smell good, LOL 

Anyway.. don't ship them if they are smelling pretty strong of Danish oil.. The mail carrier might even complain or refuse to ship them.. from my experience.. My mail lady and I are pretty tight and she mentioned to me a few years ago about the smell when I switched from the beeswax to the Danish oil.. Thankfully she was kind enough to just mention it rather than complain.. Some people are real sensitive to smell ( I'm one of those myself ). They don't smell strong in the wide open space.. but seal them up in a box for a few days and then open the box.. you'll get a good enough whiff to get high for a few seconds   

Thanks for the info!! These and a batch of 8 needs to go out quickly. And of course they were just ordered in the last day or two. 

[kmmcrafts]

4 minutes ago, OzarkSawdust said:

Thanks for the info!! These and a batch of 8 needs to go out quickly. And of course they were just ordered in the last day or two. 

My laser engraver make the ornaments smell like a campfire.. LOL Lasering is new to me this year and I've played around with different finishes to figure out what works to help get rid if the campfire smell.. So far I like the water base polyurethane spray.. stuff dries fast and the smell isn't too bad within just a few hours..

Another thing I've wanted to try since seeing Denny post a puzzle last fall and mentioning that he used shellac and diluted it 50% alcohol.. he just dipped it I believe.. The spay cans of Shellac dry pretty fast so the diluted mix should dry real fast.. Not sure how the smell would be.. but anyway so far the water based poly is what I'm using for the laser stuff to seal the smell in or cover it up, LOL  

[dgman]

Hey Gary, I always apply a top coat. I always use rattle can lacquer. I’ve found that Minwax spray lacquer dries fast. Two coats 30 minutes apart each side works real well. I can package and ship the next day without any smell. 

[OzarkSawdust]

7 minutes ago, dgman said:

Hey Gary, I always apply a top coat. I always use rattle can lacquer. I’ve found that Minwax spray lacquer dries fast. Two coats 30 minutes apart each side works real well. I can package and ship the next day without any smell. 

Quick and easy is good! I'll try that on the other order and see how it goes. Maybe spray each one as they are finished so most get a little extra curing time. I did this order when I finished cutting all.

Are there any finishes that you DO NOT want to mix, as in one on top of another? Or any that you need to do first/or last? 

[kmmcrafts]

Lacquer does work well also.. I just can't stand the smell it leaves in my shop.. I use it quite a lot outside in the warmer weather.. for my CNC projects.. But I can spray the stuff in the loft of my shop with all the windows open and fans in the windows but I can't even go work downstairs in the shop until that stuff has dried and aired out.. that one is a no go for me for spraying inside.. 

 

[OzarkSawdust]

16 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

My laser engraver make the ornaments smell like a campfire.. LOL Lasering is new to me this year and I've played around with different finishes to figure out what works to help get rid if the campfire smell.. So far I like the water base polyurethane spray.. stuff dries fast and the smell isn't too bad within just a few hours..

Another thing I've wanted to try since seeing Denny post a puzzle last fall and mentioning that he used shellac and diluted it 50% alcohol.. he just dipped it I believe.. The spay cans of Shellac dry pretty fast so the diluted mix should dry real fast.. Not sure how the smell would be.. but anyway so far the water based poly is what I'm using for the laser stuff to seal the smell in or cover it up, LOL  

Good point. I've been thinking about a laser also. When I do I'll try water base poly first! Although I do like the smell of a campfire...

[kmmcrafts]

2 minutes ago, OzarkSawdust said:

Quick and easy is good! I'll try that on the other order and see how it goes. Maybe spray each one as they are finished so most get a little extra curing time. I did this order when I finished cutting all.

Are there any finishes that you DO NOT want to mix, as in one on top of another? Or any that you need to do first/or last? 

Danish oil had poly in it.. Poly and lacquer don't mix well with one another... BUT.. There is so little in the Danish oil that people use it without issues.. that they know of anyway.. That is why if I topcoat.. over Danish oil I use the water base poly.. Less smell than Lacquer and still dries fast 

[kmmcrafts]

1 minute ago, OzarkSawdust said:

Good point. I've been thinking about a laser also. When I do I'll try water base poly first! Although I do like the smell of a campfire...

I like campfires.. didn't camp this year ..

I've seen negative reviews on etsy from laser shops complaining about the campfire smell.. It doesn't bother me.. but I try to be conscious about my products to my customers.. I've maintained 5 star ratings on all the sites I sell on for a total of around 4500 reviews.. I try my best to keep it that way, LOL 

[dgman]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Danish oil had poly in it.. Poly and lacquer don't mix well with one another... BUT.. There is so little in the Danish oil that people use it without issues.. that they know of anyway.. That is why if I topcoat.. over Danish oil I use the water base poly.. Less smell than Lacquer and still dries fast 

In the old days when I used Danish oil, I still used spray lacquer as a topcoat. I never had a problem with adhesion.

[kmmcrafts]

6 hours ago, dgman said:

In the old days when I used Danish oil, I still used spray lacquer as a topcoat. I never had a problem with adhesion.

Yeah I've seen where a lot of folks do that with no issues.. The amount of poly in Danish oil must not effect it enough for most to notice.. But anyway it's not an adhesion problem when doing this.. its a curing problem.. the chemicals in lacquer soften the poly and creates a sticky goo.. which as the lacquer dries and cures will sometimes harden up as normal in the case with the small amount in Danish oil.. But don't ever top coat anything with a good heavy coat of poly or you'll have a lot of problems.. If it's thick enough coats of poly and then lacquer over it.. it can curdle up and wrinkle lift and over time the poly looses its adhesion gets real brittle chips and falls off..

I'm surprised you can even buy it in CA.. back in my autobody days I always heard other workers talk about how you couldn't buy Lacquer based paints in CA.. you was all stuck with enamel paints.. Shade tree body guys trying to do their own body work without all the knowledge always had issues with primer softening the old paint on cars because the old paint was enamel and most primers was lacquer based.. that always caused a huge mess and they would end up having to strip the whole car down to bare metal and start over, LOL  a small job instantly turns into a really big job.. I learned from the autobody paints to not mix paints or brands while working on cars.. it has spilled over into my woodwork.. 

[OzarkSawdust]

Would the regular oil base poly work the same as water base poly??  I have oil base, and I can't find water base Polycrylic around here.

[kmmcrafts]

I think it probably might work the same but the oil base takes a lot longer to dry.. a light coat of water base will dry in about 20 - 30 minutes.. where as the oil base is a few hours..

[new2woodwrk]

I don't use danish oil often, but I do use it once in awhile.

When I do, I let it dry for 2-3 days - seems to take that long to dry well

I then always put at least 1 sometimes more coats of Poly - depending on the piece, I'll put as many as 3-4 coats of poly and 1200 sand between coats

[DME72]

i use 50/50 mix of BLO and mineral spirits. not the green version,  the kind in the metal can i think it is kleen strip. let soak for about 10-15 minutes and hang to dry over a foil pan to catch excess. i have never shipped anything but when i did craft shows awhile back that was my finish for scroll saw work. unless it will be handled alot i will use rattle cans of deft satin lacquer i get at home depot since lowes does not carry it anymore. i used to use deft and lacquer thinner on my woodturning projects as a good satin finish but it is not the same  formula anymore. too many VOCs in the old deft i guess.

 

doug

[kmmcrafts]

I figure with ornaments you're not handling them much.. I mean.. you get them out and put them on the tree.. they hang there for a few weeks and then you put them away.. I don't see any need to top coat ornaments.. Just my opinion.. You know.. those puzzles are in some cases played with.. handled a lot.. and many folks just use mineral oil, LOL At least Danish oil does have a small amount of poly in it for a little more protection.. 

A cutting board just has mineral oil on it.. sometimes a beeswax mineral oil mix.. it gets use and cutting acidic fruits and veggies on it, gets handled, washed etc.. and you only replenish the oil or renew it every 3-6 weeks.. so my point is.. why would you need a top coat for a ornament that as I said.. handled a couple times a year.. I've never top coated over Danish oil other than on a rare occasion for my clocks.. Sometimes ( many times actually ) I dip my clocks two times.. about a week or so apart.. if I'm just putting it into my inventory.. If I gotta ship it out then just one coat and or my mineral oil and beeswax mix.. My own personal clock I made in 2008 has only had one treatment of my mineral oil and beeswax.. it's been dusted many times with just a damp cloth.. still looking great.. not handled a lot.. other than to dust it out set time, change battery etc..

You go to Hobby Lobby and look at the laser cut ornaments they sell for a couple bucks.. I don't think there is any finish on those.. 

[dgman]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

 

You go to Hobby Lobby and look at the laser cut ornaments they sell for a couple bucks.. I don't think there is any finish on those.. 

And they look like crap! I have never let anything leave my shop without a finish on it!

[kmmcrafts]

34 minutes ago, dgman said:

And they look like crap! I have never let anything leave my shop without a finish on it!

I agree, that said though.. I've had many people on etsy ask me if I would make them unfinished for them.. as they want to paint them for a different project or let the kids color them or paint them.. My kids used to love to use markers and color the ornaments.. They would have me make stars and various shapes so they could color on them.. and hang them on their wall.. So there is quite a market out there for unfinished ornaments..

[Bill WIlson]

Just a couple comments that may or may not be relevant to the original post.  First, if one is going to topcoat a project and you want to use an oil first, I would suggest using BLO (full strength or thinned) instead of Danish oil.  There is no real advantage of having the slight bit of varnish in the Danish oil, if you intend to top coat anyway.  The downside to plain BLO over Danish oil may be a slightly longer cure time.  Most recommendations are to let it dry several days to a week before handling or top coating.  Your mileage may vary.

Also, depending on what you topcoat with, the oil step may also be unnecessary.  The attraction of oil is that it darkens the grain, making it pop by imparting a bit of an amber tint.  If you are top coating with a similar product, like varnish or poly, they already contain oil, so they will accomplish this step, without the separate oil step.  Lacquer and water borne finishes go on more clear and don't have the same grain popping quality as oil, so you still may want to apply the oil first, as a colorant.  Just be sure to allow the oil to cure sufficiently before applying anything over top.

My preferred finish for scrolled items is sprayed shellac.  It imparts a similar amber tone to the wood, accomplishing the same thing that the oil does without the extra step.  It also dries very quickly, with no lasting odor.  It's easy to spray and I can even get inside most frets without the excess build up that you get with heavier finishes like poly.  I've never tried dipping in shellac, but I know that others on the forum have advocated that method. 

[Rolf]

I am also very sensitive to smells. I also have no patience, Some times I dip my ornaments in a mixture of Zinser sanding sealer and alcohol. This does raise the grain a bit but a quick kiss with my mac mop takes care of that. Or I will use the Zinser Shellac spray can, very fast drying and no residual smell. 

The dip is obviously better for getting into all of the nooks and crannies.

[Denny Knappen]

I also dip mine in Shellac diluted 50% with alcohol.

[kmmcrafts]

Are you guys using the Shellac flakes or just a quart of shellac already for spraying but then dilute that even more.. I'm guessing you're using the quart?

[Bill WIlson]

There are actually a couple different shellac products available at your local paint stores and home centers.  Pre-mixed shellac is only available from Zinsser (owned by Rustoleum).  They offer a product called Bulls Eye Shellac.  This is available in either clear or amber.  This product contains a natural wax and is not recommended for use if you intend to cover it with an oil based polyurethane or waterborne top coat, as there can be adhesion problems.  Bulls Eye Seal Coat is available in clear only and is a dewaxed shellac that is a universal sealer.  It can be used in much the same way as the regular shellac, but it really shines as a binder coat between incompatible finishes or over top of surfaces that may be contaminated in some way.  It is also recommended for use with poly and waterborne top coats.

Bulls Eye shellac is a 3 lb cut, as it comes in the can.  Seal Coat is a 2 lb cut.  What this means is that the shellac has a higher concentration of solids than does the Seal Coat.  I spray both versions un-thinned.  I used to thin them, but both versions spray just fine straight out of the can.

For dipping, I would shoot for a 1 1/2 lb cut, which if you are using regular shellac, would be a 50/50 mixture with denatured alcohol.  If you are using Seal Coat, you could use a little less DNA, but in reality, I doubt you would notice much difference if you thinned it 50/50.  If using flakes, then mix them to achieve a 1 1/2 lb cut, which is 1 1/2 lbs of flakes to 1 gallon of DNA (smaller volumes - reduce accordingly, while keeping that ratio.)

[OzarkSawdust]

I had forgotten about Bulls Eye Shellac, I've used that before. The next batch of 8 ornaments will need to go out quickly also. I may just pick up a can of Bulls Eye and spray them tomorrow, let sit over night, box Monday morning and let them fly.