Bad Bearing In My Excalibur Again

[kmmcrafts]

Well, running the saw today and it started knocking pretty good.. Took it apart and the big main bearing in the rocker assembly at the back.. Seems like it should have lasted longer than it did.. I just rebuilt it late last summer.. Though I did have nearing 250 hours on it.. maybe that's the life expectancy of these. I kinda suspect a poor made bearing from the start as the other bearings are nice and tight still.. Ray at Seyco mentioned to me on the phone years ago that those bearing assemblies are sort of hit & miss for good bearing quality.. Either case.. I'm not repairing it again.. 

It's kind of a shame that one cannot buy the oddball sized bearing sleeves and bearings from a good source with quality bearings.. I did that with my old DeWalt I had and that saw ran for a lot of hours after that without issue.. 

 

[lawson56]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, I just a few day ago took my Delta apart for a good cleaning and oiling and greasing. So Far So Good

[WayneMahler]

Sorry to hear this Kevin. I think you can replace just the bearing an sleeve but pressing it in and out of the aluminum would be a little tricky. I can understand you not wanting to put any more money in it. Best of luck with what ever you decide to do. 

[Rockytime]

I can understand why people love their Excalibur, Pegas saws and similar saws. The tilting head rather than a tilting table plus top loading makes them very desirable.  If I were 20 years younger I would spring for a Pegas or Seyco. Right now I no longer have the strength or energy to mess with rebuilding a saw. That is why I loved the Hawks I've had and adore the two Hegners I have. The Hegners are worth every dollar invested. They are pretty much indestructible and the amount of maintenance is negligible.

[OCtoolguy]

4 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Well, running the saw today and it started knocking pretty good.. Took it apart and the big main bearing in the rocker assembly at the back.. Seems like it should have lasted longer than it did.. I just rebuilt it late last summer.. Though I did have nearing 250 hours on it.. maybe that's the life expectancy of these. I kinda suspect a poor made bearing from the start as the other bearings are nice and tight still.. Ray at Seyco mentioned to me on the phone years ago that those bearing assemblies are sort of hit & miss for good bearing quality.. Either case.. I'm not repairing it again.. 

It's kind of a shame that one cannot buy the oddball sized bearing sleeves and bearings from a good source with quality bearings.. I did that with my old DeWalt I had and that saw ran for a lot of hours after that without issue.. 

 

Kevin, is it the sealed bearing or the big one with the sleeve? If it's the one that's sealed, it should be cheap to replace and if it's the one with the sleeve, you should be able to replace just the bearing as long as the sleeve isn't bad. Either way, it should be a cheap fix. And you might even be able to use Dewalt parts either way. The sleeves are what is expensive. I'd figure out a way to fix that thing and off it.

 

[Scrappile]

Kevin,,, is this the "New" Excalibur or the older ones?  I have not heard of this problem in the older version... but the new ones are not the same as the older one,,, in relationship to where built and by whom.....

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, octoolguy said:

Kevin, is it the sealed bearing or the big one with the sleeve? If it's the one that's sealed, it should be cheap to replace and if it's the one with the sleeve, you should be able to replace just the bearing as long as the sleeve isn't bad. Either way, it should be a cheap fix. And you might even be able to use Dewalt parts either way. The sleeves are what is expensive. I'd figure out a way to fix that thing and off it.

 

It's the larger needle bearing with the sleeve. I haven't taken it completely down to see what is really worn. I just pulled the covers off and seen a lot of slop in that one pivot point, I'll likely pull it apart and check out the sleeve.. can't get just the sleeve as that is the one I needed the last time.. well all of them was worn but that one was shot.. the others could have went a few more hours. Anyway yeah if it's just the bearing I'll replace just the bearing. 

[kmmcrafts]

37 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Kevin,,, is this the "New" Excalibur or the older ones?  I have not heard of this problem in the older version... but the new ones are not the same as the older one,,, in relationship to where built and by whom.....

Yes it's the new China made one.. However late last summer I bought all new everything inside the saw from Seyco ( the original EX parts ) short of the motor and electronics all mechanical parts was changed to the older EX parts.. 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Rockytime said:

I can understand why people love their Excalibur, Pegas saws and similar saws. The tilting head rather than a tilting table plus top loading makes them very desirable.  If I were 20 years younger I would spring for a Pegas or Seyco. Right now I no longer have the strength or energy to mess with rebuilding a saw. That is why I loved the Hawks I've had and adore the two Hegners I have. The Hegners are worth every dollar invested. They are pretty much indestructible and the amount of maintenance is negligible.

You got that right, I've worked the crap out of that new Hawk I bought a few years ago.. Actually serviced it today with it's few drops of oil in the recommended spots and that is why I was running the Excalibur today.. I like the oil to set on the saw for a few hours before running it, otherwise it flings oil all over the place, LOL so I let it set for a few hours and then wipe off any excess oil before running it. Waxed the table etc.. good to go for another 25 hours or so before needing oiled again.. no signs of any wear on that saw yet.

[rash_powder]

That seems a little shady that the bearing isn't replaceable.  A large majority of what humans put together can be taken apart again.  

I couldn't find a drawing, but from the parts listing it seems you have to replace the arm to replace the bearing?  I've pressed things apart in a bench vise with carefully chosen sockets to act as a ram and spacer.  And being aluminum and steel expand at different rates one could bake the arm to, say, 180ish degrees F and the bearing may come in and out a bit easier.

To me thats an expensive tool to give up on.  I would have to fix it.  But that is me.  

Best of luck!!

[kmmcrafts]

20 minutes ago, rash_powder said:

That seems a little shady that the bearing isn't replaceable.  A large majority of what humans put together can be taken apart again.  

I couldn't find a drawing, but from the parts listing it seems you have to replace the arm to replace the bearing?  I've pressed things apart in a bench vise with carefully chosen sockets to act as a ram and spacer.  And being aluminum and steel expand at different rates one could bake the arm to, say, 180ish degrees F and the bearing may come in and out a bit easier.

To me thats an expensive tool to give up on.  I would have to fix it.  But that is me.  

Best of luck!!

 

The bearing can easily be changed.. The issue is you cannot buy the oddball sized sleeve insert. I have a press and have pressed the bearings out / in when taking the saw apart a couple years ago to do a clean-up / grease job. I found a worn bearing ( same one ) and sleeve back then.. and I tried sourcing bearings which I was able to find.. but the sleeve insert is oddball sized.. So I just cleaned / greased it and ran it until it broke. LOL.. Then bought everything new except the electronics and replaced it all last fall. 

 Yeah I have a neighbor / good friend who is a supervisor for a local machine shop.. I can get him to make the sleeve.. I just honestly don't have much respect for the saw at this point. I picked it up in late Nov. 2017.. didn't set it up Feb. 2018. I've had this saw apart 3 times in this amount of time.. Not sure if I got a bad lemon and then another bad lemon in replacement parts or these saws are just not make to work very long, LOL.. The complete rebuild last fall cost me over $300 in parts.. Not doing that again for a 6-8 months use.. LOL.. I do throw a lot of work at these saws though so maybe that's just the life expectancy of them.. I honestly don't NEED the saw anyway.. I do like using it though.. I do have 3 Hawks that hardly ever give me any trouble.

I may order a Pegas as they supposedly upgraded this particular bearing to a heavier duty larger one. I'll keep this saw around for some parts.. or strip the good parts and send it to the scrap pile.. 

[rash_powder]

Gotcha.  If the needle bearings are giving you repeated troubles, maybe try a plain bearing like what the Hegners use.  Thats if the shaft it rides on will allow it.

Its odd that they would choose a not common size bearing for a product that has a niche market and likely limited sales potential (by which I mean not the market potential as a car, table saw, ratchet set, etc).  Spec'ing a more common size would make more sense in that regard.  I guess it could be argued that the odd size forces parts sales to you, but it also gives a negative when word gets out that you can only find a critical part in one place.  

Anyway, best of luck!

[Rockytime]

1 hour ago, rash_powder said:

Gotcha.  If the needle bearings are giving you repeated troubles, maybe try a plain bearing like what the Hegners use.  Thats if the shaft it rides on will allow it.

Its odd that they would choose a not common size bearing for a product that has a niche market and likely limited sales potential (by which I mean not the market potential as a car, table saw, ratchet set, etc).  Spec'ing a more common size would make more sense in that regard.  I guess it could be argued that the odd size forces parts sales to you, but it also gives a negative when word gets out that you can only find a critical part in one place.  

Anyway, best of luck!

Curious, but what Hegner bearing are you speaking of? My Hegner has bronze sleeves on the rocker arms and bearings on the pitman. At least mine does.

[rash_powder]

The bronze sleeves in the arms are very similar to the bearings in an engine on the rods and crank shaft - the main bearings and such.  I've always heard them called plain bearings or bushings.  The ones on the pitman are ball bearings.  Again, thats just what I've always seen and heard them called.  It's likely I'm totally wrong.  

[kmmcrafts]

The bearings themselves are a standard size.. It's the sleeve / insert that is size specific.. and even then the diameter is right and could use one from a DeWalt saw.. except the length is what's odd sized.. You can't get the length in the correct size.. ( If I remember correctly now as that was almost 3 years ago when I searched ).. The length is critical in order to hold it all together.. I did repair the saw.. not sure if you all seen my updated post.. But the length of the sleeve was wrong from the original EX parts from the China made one that I have.. So I did get it back up and running..  

[kmmcrafts]

Hawk uses all ball bearings.. Not sure what's better? Ball bearing or bushing type bearing.. I'm guessing the best is something that is easily maintained so hopefully someone will actually maintain it.. 

They make everything throw away these days.. used to get greaseable ball joints, tie rod ends, u-joints etc for cars.. Most are just sealed and throw away now.. WHY? probably because a lot of people now days don't maintain anything in which case is better to have a sealed part where it keeps out the moisture and contaminates better than one where you add grease. There is advantages to both.. I see the Excalibur and DeWalt as the maintenance free crap.. It's all encased to help keep out the dust etc.. but since you have to take it all apart just to grease it.. not many are going to do that.. until it's too late and starts knocking etc.. LOL   

Then again, I find it to be somewhat the Manufactures fault for people failing to oil / grease at said intervals.. Why do I say that.. well there is no hour meter or way to keep track of how many hours you run a saw.. Hawk suggest oiling the certain spots every 25 hours.. How many people keep track of that.. many people in this world now aren't mechanical and can visually see the bearing area looks sort of dry.. I don't think it's about the hours you run the saw as much as it is just looking at the spots to see if they look oiled or not.. But it slips most peoples minds.. they just thinking about the project at hand.. not the maintenance that needs checked / done 

[Rolf]

Kevin is it the Pitman arm? The sealed large bearing or the needle roller bearing. I just rebuilt a friends second EX 21.  This is what I found in the first one rust in the needle bearings. That tells me the bearing Never had grease in it.  Why the saw even ran was a mystery to me. When I have time I will check all of my bearing sources to see If I can find these bearings.  It does not make sense for a manufacturer to make their own bearings. 

 

[kmmcrafts]

The one I had issue with this time was the larger bearing to the right of the one you circled in the last photo. Those end caps are different height / thickness from the China made saw to the original EX parts I received from Ray at Seyco.. This bearing kind of wedges between the saw frame and has a through bolt that removed the whole assembly.. Being different thickness end caps made it sort of rock around in there and caused vibration.. I thought the bolt was loose or something. but couldn't tighten it down enough to pinch it in place. Changing the end caps all is good now.. Not sure how it ran so good for so long the way it was.. I did have some issues trying to keep the saw tuned and the more I run it the worst it got. 

If I remember correctly this larger bearing is the one that had the rust and shot bearing the first time around. Though the one you show was also like this.. I think they all could use more grease when they're new.. It's a wonder they last as long as they do..

As for bearings, Most of the bearing sizes are the same ones for the DeWalt.. I have all new bearings and sleeves for a DW from when I had my DW.. they were the same sizes.. The inserts / sleeves is what was different. I never found a source for the sleeves. I think if you look in the EX manual it shops the bearing sizes..  I don't know if one can buy just the sleeves or not.. In my findings.. the bearings alone without the sleeves cost more than the entire assembly for the EX-21.. each bearing from my source was 5-6+ and there are nearly 20 of them.. a whole assembly from Ray is $120 ish shipped.. I bought all new rocker arms at the front of the saw so my cost was nearly $300 in parts to do the whole new saw.. that did come with new blade clamps / chucks too. If you need to replace all of them or most of them like I did as they all mostly looked rusty like the one you show.. It's cheaper to buy the assembly.. but if you really only need a couple bearings then it'd be nice if they sold just those bearings / sleeves needed.    

[OCtoolguy]

4 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

The one I had issue with this time was the larger bearing to the right of the one you circled in the last photo. Those end caps are different height / thickness from the China made saw to the original EX parts I received from Ray at Seyco.. This bearing kind of wedges between the saw frame and has a through bolt that removed the whole assembly.. Being different thickness end caps made it sort of rock around in there and caused vibration.. I thought the bolt was loose or something. but couldn't tighten it down enough to pinch it in place. Changing the end caps all is good now.. Not sure how it ran so good for so long the way it was.. I did have some issues trying to keep the saw tuned and the more I run it the worst it got. 

If I remember correctly this larger bearing is the one that had the rust and shot bearing the first time around. Though the one you show was also like this.. I think they all could use more grease when they're new.. It's a wonder they last as long as they do..

As for bearings, Most of the bearing sizes are the same ones for the DeWalt.. I have all new bearings and sleeves for a DW from when I had my DW.. they were the same sizes.. The inserts / sleeves is what was different. I never found a source for the sleeves. I think if you look in the EX manual it shops the bearing sizes..  I don't know if one can buy just the sleeves or not.. In my findings.. the bearings alone without the sleeves cost more than the entire assembly for the EX-21.. each bearing from my source was 5-6+ and there are nearly 20 of them.. a whole assembly from Ray is $120 ish shipped.. I bought all new rocker arms at the front of the saw so my cost was nearly $300 in parts to do the whole new saw.. that did come with new blade clamps / chucks too. If you need to replace all of them or most of them like I did as they all mostly looked rusty like the one you show.. It's cheaper to buy the assembly.. but if you really only need a couple bearings then it'd be nice if they sold just those bearings / sleeves needed.    

I agree Kevin. Someone must service those parts separately. I wonder how the Pegas parts would differ from the original EX's.

[kmmcrafts]

13 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I agree Kevin. Someone must service those parts separately. I wonder how the Pegas parts would differ from the original EX's.

I'm not sure, Bob Duncan says the Pegas upgraded these bearings to a larger more robust ones.. How true that is or if it's just a sales pitch I don't know.. I probably could download the Pegas manual and see if they list the bearing parts / sizes as the EX does that.. and compare... One day I'm going to order one of those Pegas or pick up a used one.. and I plan to take it apart to see the differences myself.. Not saying Pegas didn't upgrade this.. But there are tons of sales pitches from certain sales people that most wouldn't go into a saw to see if it's true or not.. I'm one that does that though, LOL.. Only reason I spent all the money for rebuilding the China made saw was.. I wanted to see the differences.. and I found them.. All clones aren't created equal.. But my gut tells me all of these saws share the same guts on the inside since they are made in the same plant.. 

As the saying goes, all of these saws will wear out at some point.. no matter what brand.. maintenance can make it go longer.. but at some point.. we all want a new toy anyway..   

[Rockytime]

Let's avoid all this and buy a Hegner!  

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Rockytime said:

Let's avoid all this and buy a Hegner!  

They still wear out too  I've seen post right on this very site where people had bad bushing and couldn't get just the bushing as it was back ordered so they purchased a new saw.. LOL.. Like I said.. they all wear out.. some much sooner than others.. your mileage may very depending on maintenance..   I do agree with you though.. they are built to last much longer. Just as Hawks are.. 

[Rockytime]

Thing is, one can't make a bearing but, if necessary, a new bushing can be easy machined from sintered bronze by any machine shop. 

[kmmcrafts]

16 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

Thing is, one can't make a bearing but, if necessary, a new bushing can be easy machined from sintered bronze by any machine shop. 

you're right, that is what I like about the Hawk and Hegner saws.. Most parts could be purchased at a local hardware store.. what can't be bought at the hardware could be made at a machine shop. 

[Scrappile]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

you're right, that is what I like about the Hawk and Hegner saws.. Most parts could be purchased at a local hardware store.. what can't be bought at the hardware could be made at a machine shop. 

Yes, my Hegner bushing will wear out... some day.... but I will bet you $50, not in my life time.  Mine is a 2010, I purchased from Advance Machinery as a demo... We can let @Rockytime hold the stakes... I am 77..  is that a fair bet??  Not really I am not trusting Rockytime with my money.... he is one of those old biker guys....