Dewalt knocking and vibration

[WolfmoonCT]

So I have always used the saw on speed 4, because anything higher and you get a knocking and vibration from the saw. Does anyone have any experience with what may be causing the saw to have a lot of vibration and a knocking sound when it's at a higher speed? 

[OCtoolguy]

Go to scrollsaws.com and read all the things there about your saw. There is an easy fix for your problem. Lots of great info.

[Ctutor]

go to Gwennette woodturners Dewalt.  Bob Brokaw has several videos on tuning up the DeWalt. some are more detailed than others but all good..

[WolfmoonCT]

Thanks.

 

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, WolfmoonCT said:

Thanks.

 

And, be sure to come back and ket us know what you found and how you fixed it. I'll lay odds on it being related to the tension rod and it's cover.

[CharleyL]

Most knocking problems in the DeWalt type saws comes from the connecting rod between the motor cam and the rocking beam and the rocking beam bearings, all back near the motor. The bolt that the rocking beam pivots on can also become loose or break (mine has blue Locktite on it now and it has been replaced once). Removing the left side cover will let you access this area easily. These are larger bearings and can be bought locally or on the internet by searching for the numbers etched in the bearing. The DeWalt connecting rod and bearings are now offered by DeWalt as a single assembly, because this aluminum part can stretch, either from use or by improper removal and installation of the bearings. If you don't own a bearing press and collars, it would be best to just buy this assembly from DeWalt. Any wear at all in any of these bearings or the rocker beam center bolt loosening problem will cause knocking when the saw is run. The videos by Gwinnet Woodworkers are great videos, but long and slow to watch, so very difficult for most to watch in their entirety. 

NEVER remove both side covers at the same time, because there is no frame to hold everything together. The covers are the exoskeleton that holds the saw together. One side can be removed at a time, as long as all of the bolts attaching the other side cover are in place, and are tight.

Charley

[OCtoolguy]

17 hours ago, octoolguy said:

And, be sure to come back and let us know what you found and how you fixed it. I'll lay odds on it being related to the tension rod and it's cover.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

So I took it apart..  All the bolts on the connecting arms are tight, there is no play in the eccentric bearings.  I did the rod one turn CCW,  and I ground down some of the piece that the tension lever connects to.  I can get it up to about a 5.5 now without too much knocking, but going to like a 7 or 8 it knocks for sure.  Putting my ear to it, it seems like the knocking is coming from the front pivot arms, and back where the motor is..  Not sure I want to pull it all apart and try to replace all the bearings.  None of the articles on scrollsaws.com  that I followed totally fixed it.  When I do turn it up to like a 6, you can feel the saw vibrating..  I bought it used originally..   wondering how much it got abused before I bought it.   The guy had a TON of blades and stuff and said he used it a lot..   Might be time to replace it.   Not sure if I want to or not..   IF I do, not sure if I want another DW or go with like a pegas..  I'm a top feeder. I like how I can tension it.  I have been reading how someone on here has been breaking blades on either the pegas or excalibur because of how the tension lever works.  I need to look into the different tensioning systems.

[OCtoolguy]

29 minutes ago, WolfmoonCT said:

So I took it apart..  All the bolts on the connecting arms are tight, there is no play in the eccentric bearings.  I did the rod one turn CCW,  and I ground down some of the piece that the tension lever connects to.  I can get it up to about a 5.5 now without too much knocking, but going to like a 7 or 8 it knocks for sure.  Putting my ear to it, it seems like the knocking is coming from the front pivot arms, and back where the motor is..  Not sure I want to pull it all apart and try to replace all the bearings.  None of the articles on scrollsaws.com  that I followed totally fixed it.  When I do turn it up to like a 6, you can feel the saw vibrating..  I bought it used originally..   wondering how much it got abused before I bought it.   The guy had a TON of blades and stuff and said he used it a lot..   Might be time to replace it.   Not sure if I want to or not..   IF I do, not sure if I want another DW or go with like a pegas..  I'm a top feeder. I like how I can tension it.  I have been reading how someone on here has been breaking blades on either the pegas or excalibur because of how the tension lever works.  I need to look into the different tensioning systems.

I went through the exact same as you. I finally took that aluminum cover off and took it to a belt sander and really shaved a bunch off of it. I made sure the rod was adjusted up enough that I could still get good tension with the slide lever. After that, no more noise. As for your bearings, it might be a good idea to take your saw apart per the video and do a good clean and grease on them. It's not a tough job, just time consuming. A Saturday afternoon. I did it on mine using the Valvoline synthetic grease and a pipe cleaner. It made a lot of difference in vibration and noise. All scroll saws will vibrate at some speed or another. A lot of it can depend on how you have the saw mounted and positioned in your shop. If you don't move it much, as has been mentioned, a bag of sand on the lower rungs of the stand will take most of the vibration out of it. The DW is a very good saw so don't give up on it unless you just want a new saw. I started with one and then moved on up the quality ladder as good used ones came available. I now have what I feel to be the best their is.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

Earlier in the spring I took it apart and greased them all. I did not feel any were loose or starting to fall apart.  None of the sleeves showed any discoloration from heat build up. So here is a video of it.. I did grind down some of that aluminum cover from the tension rod.  I did not see any marks on the bottom at all from anything hitting it, so I don't think that's the problem.

[OCtoolguy]

If you had it apart to do a bearing service, there's always a chance that something didn't get put back correctly or has come loose. As to the bearing service, what you did was to prevent a problem if you didn't find any problems. The grease that is in the bearings from the factory is crap if it is even there at all. So lubing with the synthetic grease was a very good thing. When you turn your speed up are you able to hear where the noise is coming from? Does the sound change under a load when cutting? Or is it a knocking without a load? 

[WolfmoonCT]

I hear it from the bottom arm and the back where the motor is...  All bolts are in tight and where they came from. I was meticulous about marking where each one came from..  The knocking was there before I took it apart, and did not get less after putting the synthetic grease in the bearings..   I guess I'll just keep using it, for now..

Between another Dewalt, a Pegas, or a Seyco, which one would you all go with...  I love the tensioning of the Dewalt.

[TAIrving]

Regarding the topic of breaking blades with a Pegas/Excalibur: perhaps you had read the recent discussion about 2/0 blades. 

I have a Pegas and am quite happy with it.  All blades other than the 2/0 blades tension up very well.  And the 2/0 blades work very well if I put a little bit of slack in before clamping them.  

There are many other factors to consider in selecting a new saw other than tensioning and concerns with 2/0 blades.  The community here a SSV will be happy to offer advice on this topic.  

[OCtoolguy]

8 hours ago, WolfmoonCT said:

I hear it from the bottom arm and the back where the motor is...  All bolts are in tight and where they came from. I was meticulous about marking where each one came from..  The knocking was there before I took it apart, and did not get less after putting the synthetic grease in the bearings..   I guess I'll just keep using it, for now..

Between another Dewalt, a Pegas, or a Seyco, which one would you all go with...  I love the tensioning of the Dewalt.

Well, all 3 are good saws but the Pegas & Seyco are far better. And service from Seyco is great. If it were me, owning 2 Ex's, I'd opt for the Pegas just because of the tilt mechanism. But I'm rapidly becoming a "buy American" person so I might buy a Seyco. Call Ray and talk to him. He might just make your decision easier. You can't do that with any other saw maker.

[kmmcrafts]

55 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Well, all 3 are good saws but the Pegas & Seyco are far better. And service from Seyco is great. If it were me, owning 2 Ex's, I'd opt for the Pegas just because of the tilt mechanism. But I'm rapidly becoming a "buy American" person so I might buy a Seyco. Call Ray and talk to him. He might just make your decision easier. You can't do that with any other saw maker.

While Seyco may be an American company which is good to support those American companies. I personally see no real difference in buying a Pegas from an American distributor such as Artcrafters which is an American company considering both saws are actually made in the same assembly plant... as well as the King brands and all the other names they put on them other than the General International Excalibur model which is a China made knock off unless you get a old one with that name on it as you have. 

American "Made" saws are Hawk and PSWoods.. Hawk makes all their parts in house the last I knew, not sure on the PSWoods saw. Yes Hawk does have some parts made from other countries such as possibly the electronics and maybe bearings as they do not "make" those parts of the saw. 

I'm not trying to say one saw is better than any other saw, just making a statement that I personally wouldn't skip out on a Pegas just because of the "American company thing" when I can buy a Pegas from an American company too. I might change my tune on that IF the Seyco was actually made in America.. but it's not, its made in the same place most all those other saws of that style are made. I personally like the Pegas clamps better than the Seyco ones even though Seyco does have a better clamp than the Excalibur, King, and etc. branded saws. Also like the tilting mechanism on the Pegas better.  If I were buying a new saw and those type saws is what I was after I'd go with Pegas. 

[OCtoolguy]

2 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

While Seyco may be an American company which is good to support those American companies. I personally see no real difference in buying a Pegas from an American distributor such as Artcrafters which is an American company considering both saws are actually made in the same assembly plant... as well as the King brands and all the other names they put on them other than the General International Excalibur model which is a China made knock off unless you get a old one with that name on it as you have. 

American "Made" saws are Hawk and PSWoods.. Hawk makes all their parts in house the last I knew, not sure on the PSWoods saw. Yes Hawk does have some parts made from other countries such as possibly the electronics and maybe bearings as they do not "make" those parts of the saw. 

I'm not trying to say one saw is better than any other saw, just making a statement that I personally wouldn't skip out on a Pegas just because of the "American company thing" when I can buy a Pegas from an American company too. I might change my tune on that IF the Seyco was actually made in America.. but it's not, its made in the same place most all those other saws of that style are made. I personally like the Pegas clamps better than the Seyco ones even though Seyco does have a better clamp than the Excalibur, King, and etc. branded saws. Also like the tilting mechanism on the Pegas better.  If I were buying a new saw and those type saws is what I was after I'd go with Pegas. 

You are so right Kevin. My point was to say that if customer service and parts availability are important to the buyer, Seyco would have to be my first choice. As you know, it's not that big a deal for me. I would lean heavily on the Pegas if they had a phone number where you could actually speak to a representative when you needed help. As far as I know, they still aren't servicing ALL the parts in their saws. To me, that says something. At one point it looked like Bob Duncan was going to be that person but I hear he is no longer affiliated with Pegas. I know Denny is our go-to guy here on The Village but even he doesn't have access to all the parts that might be needed. I made the statement regarding "buying American" not because of the country of origin but to support an American company that is marketing good products. I hope you get my drift.

 

[kmmcrafts]

10 hours ago, WolfmoonCT said:

I hear it from the bottom arm and the back where the motor is...  All bolts are in tight and where they came from. I was meticulous about marking where each one came from..  The knocking was there before I took it apart, and did not get less after putting the synthetic grease in the bearings..   I guess I'll just keep using it, for now..

Between another Dewalt, a Pegas, or a Seyco, which one would you all go with...  I love the tensioning of the Dewalt.

If you like the tensioning mechanism and the other things on the DeWalt you might want to just buy another DW. They are decent saws for the money. Be nice if you could sit at each one and see what you like the most. I started business out with a DW and ran that saw hard for 6 years, did rebuild it once and was worn again when I sold it. Between the two saws a couple things come to mind that I didn't like about the EX type saws was the table size, distance from blade to front of table, and if you use the factory stand the EX type stands kinda suck ( nowhere to put your legs / feet ) While these things was really annoying to me at first I have grown used to it now and really don't think much of it at all these days but at first I hated the table and stand. Just some things to consider and possibly be aware of on these saws. Pegas does offer a larger table with a lot more distance from table edge to the blade etc. and I do believe that table will fit the other branded "like" saws. Does have a somewhat hefty price on that larger table too if I remember correctly.

Edit to add: If the table is an issue for you then the Seyco comes with a larger table and its less money than the Pegas with the table upgrade. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by kmmcrafts

[OCtoolguy]

31 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

If you like the tensioning mechanism and the other things on the DeWalt you might want to just buy another DW. They are decent saws for the money. Be nice if you could sit at each one and see what you like the most. I started business out with a DW and ran that saw hard for 6 years, did rebuild it once and was worn again when I sold it. Between the two saws a couple things come to mind that I didn't like about the EX type saws was the table size, distance from blade to front of table, and if you use the factory stand the EX type stands kinda suck ( nowhere to put your legs / feet ) While these things was really annoying to me at first I have grown used to it now and really don't think much of it at all these days but at first I hated the table and stand. Just some things to consider and possibly be aware of on these saws. Pegas does offer a larger table with a lot more distance from table edge to the blade etc. and I do believe that table will fit the other branded "like" saws. Does have a somewhat hefty price on that larger table too if I remember correctly.

Edit to add: If the table is an issue for you then the Seyco comes with a larger table and its less money than the Pegas with the table upgrade. 

It's strange that you bring up table size Kevin. I have the 2 Ex's and now a Hegner. The Hegner's table is even smaller than the Ex. But, for me, it hasn't made a difference. I've not run out of room for anything that I've but. I'm just not sure why folks are hung up on that particular thing. If you need a larger table, make an accessory table that can be mounted when needed. To me, it's just not a deal breaker. I guess if you are into doing those huge fretwork pieces with spiral blades, I can see where it might be important but that's not my forte.

 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, octoolguy said:

It's strange that you bring up table size Kevin. I have the 2 Ex's and now a Hegner. The Hegner's table is even smaller than the Ex. But, for me, it hasn't made a difference. I've not run out of room for anything that I've but. I'm just not sure why folks are hung up on that particular thing. If you need a larger table, make an accessory table that can be mounted when needed. To me, it's just not a deal breaker. I guess if you are into doing those huge fretwork pieces with spiral blades, I can see where it might be important but that's not my forte.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with what I was accustom too. I ran the Dremel I had for about 3 years and it has a table much like the DW had.. then I ran the DW for 6+ years with it's large table. The Hawks have a slightly smaller table than the DW etc. but I never really noticed it until I got the EX and WOW! that table is real small compared to the DW etc. Then I started doing some measuring on tables etc. There was ( if I remember correctly ) 6.5 inch of table in front of the blade on the DW and only about a half inch difference with the Hawk.. but then the EX only has like 3.5 inch out front of the blade.. that's half of what the others have. 

I am still running the stock table on my EX, and it doesn't bother me at all anymore.. unless I'm cutting 18 - 20 inch material.. swinging a large really large projects around on a saw can be difficult.. especially when you only have a little over 3 inch of support at the front of the table.  The actual table size doesn't bother me.. it's more about the blade being right near the front of the table that is more of a problem with large projects. 

I want to say the DW was more than 6.5 inch.. I could go measure my Hawk I suppose as it wasn't much smaller.. but in either case.. when you're used to the whole project not hanging off the saw at all and then go the the EX where even cutting 4 inch diameter ornament the project is off the tables edge a little.. I just wasn't used to having to hold the project down in a way to keep it from tilting off the edge of the table. 

No different than trying to get used to the tall stands on the Hawk.. at first it took me some time to get used to that.. now it's just natural to me. There have been numerus topics and comments over the years about the EX tables so I'm not the only one that had complained about it.. which is why Ray made the large table on the Seyco a standard option and why Pegas took the time to design a larger table option  My opinion on Pegas table is.. it shouldn't be a add-on.. should be standard OR an upgrade option where you pick which table you want.. instead they sell you the saw with the small table and send you a large table too.. should be a order option with two separate prices.. what does one do with that small table when they upgrade to the bigger table.. goes into the trash or ?? If I order a Pegas and want the larger table then they should have a way to remove the small table and upgrade to the larger one.. instead they want to sell you two tables which is really dumb and wasteful.  For me, if I order a new Pegas I'll order the larger table and then put the smaller one on my EX as the paints all worn off my EX table.. But I'd still rather just order the large table and they keep the smaller one and charge you the price difference between the two rather than full price for two tables even though you really only need one of them, LOL

 

[WolfmoonCT]

of the 3 saws, which one has best availability?  On the Seyco site, it doesn't say they are out of stock.  I have not looked for a Pegas,  nor the availability of the DW right now.

I cut almost exclusively with 2/0R blades, so breaking them easily would not be a good thing for me...  Steve Good said that you CAN kinda use the parallel arm adjuster to modify the tension a little..  wonder if that would help for me.

Edited July 11, 2021 by WolfmoonCT

[Rockytime]

16 minutes ago, WolfmoonCT said:

of the 3 saws, which one has best availability?  On the Seyco site, it doesn't say they are out of stock.  I have not looked for a Pegas,  nor the availability of the DW right now.

I cut almost exclusively with 2/0R blades, so breaking them easily would not be a good thing for me...  Steve Good said that you CAN kinda use the parallel arm adjuster to modify the tension a little..  wonder if that would help for me.

Get a Hegner and stop worrying about breaking #2/0 blades. They are my go to blade. The break when they fatigue from heat. Has a lot to do with the material you are cutting. I cut mostly 1/8" BB and the blades cut for quite awhile.

[WolfmoonCT]

I mainly cut 1/4"-3/8" ash, maple, cherry, and red oak. 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, WolfmoonCT said:

  Steve Good said that you CAN kinda use the parallel arm adjuster to modify the tension a little..  wonder if that would help for me.

The issue with this method in my opinion is you'll have to adjust it every time you un-do a blade clamp.. if you're doing fretwork it would be a royal pain. Basically what you'd do for this method is: Install blade in both clamps then "slightly lower the parallel arm via knob at back of saw" then apply the tension via the lever, then if changing to another hole you'd need to release tension > turn knob at back of saw to raise the arm back to where it was switch blade to another hole reclamp again, and lower arm via knob at back of saw then apply tension. You see.. basically the parallel arm is not meant for changing once you set it parallel you should never mess with that adjustment again. IF you forget to turn it back or forward once or twice you get the saw alignment all out of whack. 

Just my opinion but I'd say bending the blade over some while installing it like in Randy's ( Hotshot ) video is a better method. OR buying another DW, Hawk, or Hegner where there is no fuss with small blades. 

I'll note that, I typically run 2/0 spirals on my Excalibur EX21 with no issues of blade breakage at all, and I don't fuss with the knob or bending the blade over to get less tension. I think a spiral blade breaks easier than a straight reverse blade does too. BUT.. going with a smaller than 2/0 might start causing some issues.. I half wonder if the breaking blades issue in the other topic isn't a bad batch of blades..

As far as availability, I'm guessing Seyco will have some inventory of their saws most all the time.. Pegas is / was a very hot seller and they had been selling out faster than they could get them.. and with the shipping ports being backed up because of Covid etc.. they have had trouble getting saws. Not sure if that's still the case or not, I'd contact Denny and ask if that is a concern.  

 

[CSull]

I had a issue with 2/0 blades for a while .  I have a DeWalt with the Pegas heads with the Pegas clamp.  Works great on everything except 2/0 blades which break as soon as I push the white lever to tension.  I discovered that if I leave the Pegas lever down and use the DeWalt tensioner on 3-4 the blades do not break when applying tension and I can cut faitly thick hardwoods with no problem.  I don't know why but that's just how it is on my machine.

[CharleyL]

With a blade clamped in the saw, and the motor shaft rotated by a screwdriver to the high or low point (without running the saw), try lifting and pushing down on the top blade clamp. If it moves easily up and down a short distance, you have worn bearings or something else is loose somewhere. Your mission then is to repeat this test with the left side cover removed and you watching closely what moves and what doesn't. Worn bearings get gradually bad and it doesn't take more than a few thousandths of an inch or play in a bearing or the connection point of moving parts to cause the noise that you are experiencing.

 

Charley