Dewalt knocking and vibration

[kmmcrafts]

Exactly what Charley said, only a few thousandths of an inch wear on each bearing.. turns into a lot of slop when you factor in that there are something like 20 bearings in the saw. I know this may sound dumb to some folks but If I'm taking the saw apart I'm replacing all those bearings.. I know there may only be a couple really worn bearings.. but slight wear in the ones you don't replace creates a hammering effect on them once you make those worn ones tight again.. just going to cause premature wear on the whole system.. 

When I rebuilt my DW the first time and used a quality name brand bearing and high quality synthetic grease.. that saw ran smoother than it did when it was new.. and it lasted two times longer before needing attention again.. 

[OCtoolguy]

56 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Exactly what Charley said, only a few thousandths of an inch wear on each bearing.. turns into a lot of slop when you factor in that there are something like 20 bearings in the saw. I know this may sound dumb to some folks but If I'm taking the saw apart I'm replacing all those bearings.. I know there may only be a couple really worn bearings.. but slight wear in the ones you don't replace creates a hammering effect on them once you make those worn ones tight again.. just going to cause premature wear on the whole system.. 

When I rebuilt my DW the first time and used a quality name brand bearing and high quality synthetic grease.. that saw ran smoother than it did when it was new.. and it lasted two times longer before needing attention again.. 

I totally agree with you Kevin and also Charley. The problem that we run into now though is the cost of everything has risen to the point to where it becomes nuts to spend the money on an old saw. If you replace all the bearing and the sleeves, you've got almost the price of a new saw when on sale. It's a sad fact of life that things do reach a point where it's just cheaper to recycle them.

[kmmcrafts]

56 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I totally agree with you Kevin and also Charley. The problem that we run into now though is the cost of everything has risen to the point to where it becomes nuts to spend the money on an old saw. If you replace all the bearing and the sleeves, you've got almost the price of a new saw when on sale. It's a sad fact of life that things do reach a point where it's just cheaper to recycle them.

Yeah, I do agree too, about 6 years ago I purchased all new bearings / sleeves etc. to do a complete rebuild on my DW and back then the cost was just over $200 factor in a half day of labor for the rebuild and not only that but down time I could have been making products rather than rebuilding a saw. I will say though.. with quality parts and good grease I went from getting 14 -24 months on a saw to about 5 years before needing to do another rebuild so there is that.. If I was a person that was a DW saw only saw that worked for me I'd be rebuilding rather than buying new and replacing every 1.5 years or so.. They run so much smoother / quiet etc. with the quality parts and grease.  It's a shame they can't put grease fittings on these things so they can be maintained.. The biggest reason of failure when I take these apart seems to be the grease disappeared, LOL If you could give them a shot of grease every 6-12 months they'd go a really long time..

[OCtoolguy]

28 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Yeah, I do agree too, about 6 years ago I purchased all new bearings / sleeves etc. to do a complete rebuild on my DW and back then the cost was just over $200 factor in a half day of labor for the rebuild and not only that but down time I could have been making products rather than rebuilding a saw. I will say though.. with quality parts and good grease I went from getting 14 -24 months on a saw to about 5 years before needing to do another rebuild so there is that.. If I was a person that was a DW saw only saw that worked for me I'd be rebuilding rather than buying new and replacing every 1.5 years or so.. They run so much smoother / quiet etc. with the quality parts and grease.  It's a shame they can't put grease fittings on these things so they can be maintained.. The biggest reason of failure when I take these apart seems to be the grease disappeared, LOL If you could give them a shot of grease every 6-12 months they'd go a really long time..

The secret is to have 2 and rotate them. Always have one ready with new bears/sleeves/grease.

[CharleyL]

You don't need to spend that much on bearings, if you buy them through a bearing and power transmission distributor. DeWalt and the replacement parts dealers buy them there, and then double or triple the price before selling them to you. If you know the bearing numbers, just do a yellow page lookup for a bearing and power transmission store near you. There is one in almost every major city in the USA. They will give you a much better price for the bearings that you need. Even an online search for each bearing number will get you better prices for them. The guy at the counter may even know of better quality bearings than the originals. It may cost a few dollars more than the original brands, but when I asked he replied "oh yeah" and then gave me the better quality bearings. I think I paid about 10% more by following his selection, but it's been years since I rebuilt my DeWalt saw. I bought 2 sets, so still have a spare set. My saw is beginning to tell me that it wants more attention again, so I'll likely be going through it before my Christmas cutting. Good bearings and a good synthetic grease job make all the difference in the World.

Charley

 

[OCtoolguy]

18 minutes ago, CharleyL said:

You don't need to spend that much on bearings, if you buy them through a bearing and power transmission distributor. DeWalt and the replacement parts dealers buy them there, and then double or triple the price before selling them to you. If you know the bearing numbers, just do a yellow page lookup for a bearing and power transmission store near you. There is one in almost every major city in the USA. They will give you a much better price for the bearings that you need. Even an online search for each bearing number will get you better prices for them. The guy at the counter may even know of better quality bearings than the originals. It may cost a few dollars more than the original brands, but when I asked he replied "oh yeah" and then gave me the better quality bearings. I think I paid about 10% more by following his selection, but it's been years since I rebuilt my DeWalt saw. I bought 2 sets, so still have a spare set. My saw is beginning to tell me that it wants more attention again, so I'll likely be going through it before my Christmas cutting. Good bearings and a good synthetic grease job make all the difference in the World.

Charley

 

Good advice Charley. I did find a good source for the bearings near me but sleeves are the real expense. It appears from my research that Dewalt has the market cornered on them. They are twice the price of the bearings so if you need them, the cost to rebuild is pretty high. Crazy!

[kmmcrafts]

 

 

1 hour ago, CharleyL said:

You don't need to spend that much on bearings, if you buy them through a bearing and power transmission distributor. DeWalt and the replacement parts dealers buy them there, and then double or triple the price before selling them to you. If you know the bearing numbers, just do a yellow page lookup for a bearing and power transmission store near you. There is one in almost every major city in the USA. They will give you a much better price for the bearings that you need. Even an online search for each bearing number will get you better prices for them. The guy at the counter may even know of better quality bearings than the originals. It may cost a few dollars more than the original brands, but when I asked he replied "oh yeah" and then gave me the better quality bearings. I think I paid about 10% more by following his selection, but it's been years since I rebuilt my DeWalt saw. I bought 2 sets, so still have a spare set. My saw is beginning to tell me that it wants more attention again, so I'll likely be going through it before my Christmas cutting. Good bearings and a good synthetic grease job make all the difference in the World.

Charley

 

I used a local specialty bearing supply place here in MI called Detroit Bearing and I did get the better quality bearings, they was real close to $8 each x about 20 in the saw if memory serves me correct. Plus as Ray said, the sleeves from what I could dig up was only through DW or in my case through ereplacementparts. The connecting rod deal the goes from the motor to the pivot arm bearings was really pretty close to the price of the whole assembly so I went that route. IF memory serves me right the sleeves are $6-7 each plus the shipping cost.. you might as well say $200 or very close to it. In my case buying a Hawk was a much better investment.. If it needs bearings any local hardware has them and there is only 4 of them. I've only ever had to change the ones on the connecting rod from motor to lower arm on my 2 older saws. They are a sealed bearing but all the grease after 30 years apparently dried up. $6 each at my local Detroit Bearing store.. 2 bearings one on each end of the rod.. both same bearing, about 20 minute job to pull the two bolts and press the new bearing in, and put it back on. Never had to replace any bearings in the upper / lower arms.. they looked well oiled and not any wear to be seen.     

 

EDIT To Add: 

When I rebuilt my Excalibur I bought the whole assembly from Seyco.. All the bearings inside the saw already pressed into the new arm assemblies etc.. was only $114.. mind you that doesn't come with the front rocker assembly bearings at the front of the saw.. But I couldn't get the bearings for that price.. and I never did find a source for the bearing sleeves.. the assembly from Seyco comes fully assemble with the sleeves in it and you only need to remove a couple bolts to install the thing.. I don't know the quality of the bearings etc though.. I would have rather bought new bearings of a high quality and replaced the sleeves so I know I have good parts in it but as I said.. there doesn't seem to be a source for the sleeves themselves.. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by kmmcrafts

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

 

 

I used a local specialty bearing supply place here in MI called Detroit Bearing and I did get the better quality bearings, they was real close to $8 each x about 20 in the saw if memory serves me correct. Plus as Ray said, the sleeves from what I could dig up was only through DW or in my case through ereplacementparts. The connecting rod deal the goes from the motor to the pivot arm bearings was really pretty close to the price of the whole assembly so I went that route. IF memory serves me right the sleeves are $6-7 each plus the shipping cost.. you might as well say $200 or very close to it. In my case buying a Hawk was a much better investment.. If it needs bearings any local hardware has them and there is only 4 of them. I've only ever had to change the ones on the connecting rod from motor to lower arm on my 2 older saws. They are a sealed bearing but all the grease after 30 years apparently dried up. $6 each at my local Detroit Bearing store.. 2 bearings one on each end of the rod.. both same bearing, about 20 minute job to pull the two bolts and press the new bearing in, and put it back on. Never had to replace any bearings in the upper / lower arms.. they looked well oiled and not any wear to be seen.     

 

EDIT To Add: 

When I rebuilt my Excalibur I bought the whole assembly from Seyco.. All the bearings inside the saw already pressed into the new arm assemblies etc.. was only $114.. mind you that doesn't come with the front rocker assembly bearings at the front of the saw.. But I couldn't get the bearings for that price.. and I never did find a source for the bearing sleeves.. the assembly from Seyco comes fully assemble with the sleeves in it and you only need to remove a couple bolts to install the thing.. I don't know the quality of the bearings etc though.. I would have rather bought new bearings of a high quality and replaced the sleeves so I know I have good parts in it but as I said.. there doesn't seem to be a source for the sleeves themselves.. 

Kevin, that brings to mind the question of what to do if you need to rebuild the front arms/bearings on the Ex saws. You bought all the innards but what if you need to service the fronts? What then? Did you ever talk to Ray about that? I'd like to know for future needs. Thanks for all your input here.

 

[kmmcrafts]

40 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Kevin, that brings to mind the question of what to do if you need to rebuild the front arms/bearings on the Ex saws. You bought all the innards but what if you need to service the fronts? What then? Did you ever talk to Ray about that? I'd like to know for future needs. Thanks for all your input here.

 

I did buy the front section, I tried to modify it by grinding down the brackets to make them fit.. but it was a no go for me, or at least I gave up on grinding the parts down as it's only the bracket that's different the rocker arms and bearings etc is the same. so I took the bearings and parts off the new assemblies and mounted them into the old ones.  I posted photos of all this last year when did the build and posted on here about it. Not exactly sure how to find that posting now.. I'll see if I can find it though and link it here to this topic.

EDIT TO ADD TOPIC LINK:

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by kmmcrafts

[OCtoolguy]

38 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I did buy the front section, I tried to modify it by grinding down the brackets to make them fit.. but it was a no go for me, or at least I gave up on grinding the parts down as it's only the bracket that's different the rocker arms and bearings etc is the same. so I took the bearings and parts off the new assemblies and mounted them into the old ones.  I posted photos of all this last year when did the build and posted on here about it. Not exactly sure how to find that posting now.. I'll see if I can find it though and link it here to this topic.

EDIT TO ADD TOPIC LINK:

 

I remember when you posted that. I also looked at the Seyco site and looks like it would be another $160+ to fix that. Lots of parts left over. Thanks.

[kmmcrafts]

15 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I remember when you posted that. I also looked at the Seyco site and looks like it would be another $160+ to fix that. Lots of parts left over. Thanks.

I actually used the blade chucks as I wanted to compare them to those junk China made ones.. I hope China has at least improved on that part as they was junk. After about 6 months use I put my Pegas chucks back on. I sold the chucks on eBay for $50  and the new rocker assembly brackets with the old link arms, bearings etc. as the front part wasn't really too bad. Got another $50 for them. 

[OCtoolguy]

19 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I actually used the blade chucks as I wanted to compare them to those junk China made ones.. I hope China has at least improved on that part as they was junk. After about 6 months use I put my Pegas chucks back on. I sold the chucks on eBay for $50  and the new rocker assembly brackets with the old link arms, bearings etc. as the front part wasn't really too bad. Got another $50 for them. 

Well, that worked out well then. Always nice to sell something rather than trash can them.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

So..  In my research on what I want to do..  I've NEVER been "happy" with this Dewalt. It's always had some sort of noise, but now it's gotten worse.  I have tried the fixes with no luck so far..   So I msg'd back and forth with Denny about the Pegas.  He was nice and answered some questions I had. I decided I wanted to see about customer service.. so I called the number in the Pegas manual.. The closest I could get with them to ask questions was sales, and they had no technical knowledge, and no option for tech support on the IVR system. She said she would have one of the other guys call me that might know more about the saw.. but I have not heard back.  I called Seyco, and I got I believe it was Mike.  He answered my questions, and even gave me a name of someone in TN who runs a school for intarsia who has like 15 of the seyco, to see what she said about the saw..  So far, to me, Seyco has the better service. It also has the bigger table from the blade to the front.  Between Seyco free shipping, and looking at woodcraft for the Pegas with shipping, the Seyco actually comes in a bit cheaper..  Seyco said they have the saws and once I order, they ship the next day...  I'm really leaning toward the Seyco..  Maybe leave the DW in the corner till I get around to buying a used arbor press for the bearings and maybe swap out the bearings if I can't get it to calm down by adjusting the tension rod more.. but every time you turn it out, it gives less tension you can put on the blade, so not sure how much I can adjust that before I am out of travel.  Also, with the DW, no matter how much I have tried to adjust it, not only is an agressive cutting saw, (which you can adjust on both pegas and seyco)  I have never been able to get rid of a slight side to side movement of the blade either.  I can put a square up on the table, make the blade dead on, but when I move the arms, the blade will either move away from a straight edge, or push the straight edge over by about 1/32 of an inch depending on the original postion of the heads in up or down stroke.

[kmmcrafts]

I think you'll love either saw, and I do agree that Pegas lacks in service centers and even parts sourcing.. Nobody seems to know where you go for a bearing, sleeve, or rocker assemblies.. Pegas is still new and they haven't had to deal with major parts yet.. at some point there are going to be people needing parts and no way to figure out where or who to get them from.

[OCtoolguy]

3 hours ago, WolfmoonCT said:

So..  In my research on what I want to do..  I've NEVER been "happy" with this Dewalt. It's always had some sort of noise, but now it's gotten worse.  I have tried the fixes with no luck so far..   So I msg'd back and forth with Denny about the Pegas.  He was nice and answered some questions I had. I decided I wanted to see about customer service.. so I called the number in the Pegas manual.. The closest I could get with them to ask questions was sales, and they had no technical knowledge, and no option for tech support on the IVR system. She said she would have one of the other guys call me that might know more about the saw.. but I have not heard back.  I called Seyco, and I got I believe it was Mike.  He answered my questions, and even gave me a name of someone in TN who runs a school for intarsia who has like 15 of the seyco, to see what she said about the saw..  So far, to me, Seyco has the better service. It also has the bigger table from the blade to the front.  Between Seyco free shipping, and looking at woodcraft for the Pegas with shipping, the Seyco actually comes in a bit cheaper..  Seyco said they have the saws and once I order, they ship the next day...  I'm really leaning toward the Seyco..  Maybe leave the DW in the corner till I get around to buying a used arbor press for the bearings and maybe swap out the bearings if I can't get it to calm down by adjusting the tension rod more.. but every time you turn it out, it gives less tension you can put on the blade, so not sure how much I can adjust that before I am out of travel.  Also, with the DW, no matter how much I have tried to adjust it, not only is an agressive cutting saw, (which you can adjust on both pegas and seyco)  I have never been able to get rid of a slight side to side movement of the blade either.  I can put a square up on the table, make the blade dead on, but when I move the arms, the blade will either move away from a straight edge, or push the straight edge over by about 1/32 of an inch depending on the original postion of the heads in up or down stroke.

As to the problem with the tension rod, I too had messed around with the shortening and lengthening the rod but until I finally really took a bunch off the bottom of that cover and then re-adjusted the rod to the shortest I could get it, once all that was done, the knocking went away. It's really about the clearance at the underside of the cover.

 

[WolfmoonCT]

9 hours ago, octoolguy said:

As to the problem with the tension rod, I too had messed around with the shortening and lengthening the rod but until I finally really took a bunch off the bottom of that cover and then re-adjusted the rod to the shortest I could get it, once all that was done, the knocking went away. It's really about the clearance at the underside of the cover.

 

I have already taken that rod cover off and ground it down.. but there were no marks at all on the bottom of it.  Since I hear the sounds more towards the bottom pivot arms and the rear of the saw, I'm really going with an issue of bearings most likely..

[Joe W.]

14 hours ago, WolfmoonCT said:

So..  In my research on what I want to do..  I've NEVER been "happy" with this Dewalt. It's always had some sort of noise, but now it's gotten worse.  I have tried the fixes with no luck so far..

Back from vacation now and saw your post. 
 

I had a similar problem with the used DW I bought when I started out this past January. 
My two solutions were to replace the connecting rod and build a 3-legged sturdy wood stand for it with a pad between the stand and the scroll saw base. I added retractable casters to the stand to allow easy movement around the garage. 
Oh, and I also cleaned all the bearings and used Valvoline grease on them.
Those actions fixed my noise/vibration issues.

 

[CharleyL]

16 hours ago, WolfmoonCT said:

Maybe leave the DW in the corner till I get around to buying a used arbor press for the bearings and maybe swap out the bearings if I can't get it to calm down by adjusting the tension rod more.. but every time you turn it out, it gives less tension you can put on the blade, so not sure how much I can adjust that before I am out of travel.  Also, with the DW, no matter how much I have tried to adjust it, not only is an agressive cutting saw, (which you can adjust on both pegas and seyco)  I have never been able to get rid of a slight side to side movement of the blade either.  I can put a square up on the table, make the blade dead on, but when I move the arms, the blade will either move away from a straight edge, or push the straight edge over by about 1/32 of an inch depending on the original postion of the heads in up or down stroke.

Do you have a drill press? Not a Harbor Freight, but a good sturdy drill press like a Delta or Powermatic, etc. makes a good arbor press. Then you need the bearing press collars so as to only put pressure on the outer race of the bearings. These are available from local auto parts stores.

For the side to side movement of the blade as the blade moves up and down, have you tried adjusting the set screws on the opposite side of the arms from the blade lock knobs? You can loosen the blade lock knob and then turn the set screw in or out a bit, then retighten the blade lock knob and check the blade side to side movement again. The blade should be close to the center of the table hole and not shift side to side as it moves up and down. A few tries and testing of these set screw positions may be needed to get the blade centered and running straight up and down. Blue Loctite on the set screw threads will keep this adjustment from changing, yet not lock the threads so tight that the set screw cannot be adjusted again at a later date. DO NOT use any other color of Loctite, or you will likely never be able to change the set screw positions again.

If the blade moves forward and back as you move it up and down, the blade arm assemblies can be moved slightly forward and back by loosening the screws unn the ends of the upper and lower arms and then moving the short arm mechanisms slightly forward or back. The screw slots in the yellow arms may not allow enough adjustment. I had to use a round jeweler's file to increase the front to back slots in my lower arm to get perfectly straight up and down blade movement. Getting this right reduces the aggressiveness of the cut, but also helps get straight cuts in thick work. I test my blade angle and movement using a 1 3/4" block of hardwood that has been cut with perfectly straight sides, but machinists 1,2,3 blocks can work well for this too, or anything that you can place on the table with a perfect 90 deg side to table reference will work too. A small machinists square is another possibility. The edge of these can be placed on the table and near the blade to check that the blade is 90 degrees to the table in both side to side as well as front to back, and also give you a good reference line to see any angled blade movement as it is moved up and down by hand (best way is turning the motor shaft manually with no power by using a screwdriver).

Charley

Edited July 14, 2021 by CharleyL

[kmmcrafts]

I think you could use a piece of 1/4" BBply to cut out small bearing press collars.. I don't think a complete set of collars is needed if they aren't going to be used again.  I actually used a socket from my socket wrench set that was exactly the same diameter as the bearings. I also used one on the opposite side just larger than the bearing to support the piece. 

I picked up some side to side movement with my DW as well and it ended up being the rocker arm bearings / sleeves was worn more on one side of the bearing more than the other.. There are two separate bearings in the rocker arm at the same pivot point with one long sleeve to go through. I constantly had issues with the bearings in the lower arm at the front of the saw.. My guess for the reason is that all the sawdust when cutting seems to fall right onto the moving mechanism of the lower arm. Fine wood dust doesn't necessarily damage the metal bearings as wood is softer than the metal, But what does happen in my opinion is that sawdust absorbs the moisture out of the grease. I half wonder if this isn't the issue for your saw.. sound can travel through those link arms and make it sound like it's at the back of the saw. I used to take the front lower bearings apart about every 8-12 months just to clean and regrease. In doing so I would find the grease dry and or turned into a harden paste yet the top front of the saw was still nicely greased.. My reasoning for the thought of the sawdust dropping down onto all the lower bearings.. Same ordeal on my Excalibur until I bought the Seyco dust vacuum.. Now those bearings stay lubed up well.. I think a dust collection of some sort can serve two positive purposes.  

     

[WolfmoonCT]

8 hours ago, CharleyL said:

Do you have a drill press? Not a Harbor Freight, but a good sturdy drill press like a Delta or Powermatic, etc. makes a good arbor press. Then you need the bearing press collars so as to only put pressure on the outer race of the bearings. These are available from local auto parts stores.

For the side to side movement of the blade as the blade moves up and down, have you tried adjusting the set screws on the opposite side of the arms from the blade lock knobs? You can loosen the blade lock knob and then turn the set screw in or out a bit, then retighten the blade lock knob and check the blade side to side movement again. The blade should be close to the center of the table hole and not shift side to side as it moves up and down. A few tries and testing of these set screw positions may be needed to get the blade centered and running straight up and down. Blue Loctite on the set screw threads will keep this adjustment from changing, yet not lock the threads so tight that the set screw cannot be adjusted again at a later date. DO NOT use any other color of Loctite, or you will likely never be able to change the set screw positions again.

If the blade moves forward and back as you move it up and down, the blade arm assemblies can be moved slightly forward and back by loosening the screws unn the ends of the upper and lower arms and then moving the short arm mechanisms slightly forward or back. The screw slots in the yellow arms may not allow enough adjustment. I had to use a round jeweler's file to increase the front to back slots in my lower arm to get perfectly straight up and down blade movement. Getting this right reduces the aggressiveness of the cut, but also helps get straight cuts in thick work. I test my blade angle and movement using a 1 3/4" block of hardwood that has been cut with perfectly straight sides, but machinists 1,2,3 blocks can work well for this too, or anything that you can place on the table with a perfect 90 deg side to table reference will work too. A small machinists square is another possibility. The edge of these can be placed on the table and near the blade to check that the blade is 90 degrees to the table in both side to side as well as front to back, and also give you a good reference line to see any angled blade movement as it is moved up and down by hand (best way is turning the motor shaft manually with no power by using a screwdriver).

Charley

I do have a nice Delta drill press.. one of the nice ones from late 90's..  I have tried everything I can with the set screws that was my first adjustments for the side to side.  I've gone through about every video I can find on this DW for the last year.. It's got all new grease in the bearings. I did not see any wear on the sleeves.. no bluing, no indents from limited movement the sleeves see.. 

I went and ordered the Seyco today.. I really don't have the time to not have a scrollsaw.. I can use the Seyco for me, when it arrives, and that lets me tear the DW down and not be out of the saw, and maybe see if it's just some bearings..  If so, maybe replace them and let the GF learn and practice simple cuts on the DW.

[kmmcrafts]

Congrats on the new saw.. and good luck with the rebuild when you get around to messing with the DW. I think you're going to like that Seyco a lot..

[WolfmoonCT]

Just got the email from Seyco sayin the saw shipped!