Finishing and Painting ??

[kmmcrafts]

So this is a Unity Puzzle (haven’t cut the pieces yet) I’m making. This is both a CNC and scroll saw project as I used the CNC to mill (pocket carve ) out the center of the walnut board and also to cut out all the circle rings down to about a 1/8 inch left then sawed the rest on the scroll saw since I still don’t have a spoil board set up on my CNC. 
 

Anyway, I’m not much of a wood finishing person short of just dipping in Danish oil or once in a great while shooting some poly. This piece I’m going to have to learn a bit, lol. I will be painting the carved text out ( white paint on the walnut and black on the cherry and maple. ). In order to prevent the paint from soaking into the wood grain I need to seal it up good “very good” yet I want to make the grain pop like Danish oil would make it do. Intend to seal it spray paint the text and then sand off the paint on the main surface so the text gets the paint. Then I’ll top coat all of it with another couple coats of clear. 
 

Now my question is. What do I seal this with? I have the water based poly in a quart can and can brush or spray it. Also have a quart can of shellac. Not sure how well either would do with top coating them with paint. Actually have done it with the poly , but the poly doesn’t really make the grain pop like I would like it to. So wondered what you all my suggest? 
 

 

[Bill WIlson]

This sounds like a job for shellac. Use the Sealcoat variety and it should be compatible with the paint.  It will also pop the grain.

Full disclosure, I've never done what you are describing.  Test on some scrap first.

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, Bill WIlson said:

This sounds like a job for shellac. Use the Sealcoat variety and it should be compatible with the paint.  It will also pop the grain.

Full disclosure, I've never done what you are describing.  Test on some scrap first.

Bill, when you say "shellac" are you referring to the type you mix yourself or the pre-mixed? Just want to be clear as I'm learning too. Finishing is my downfall at this point. I can cut anything but the finishing is where I lose it.

To edit, I've been using Zinnser's spray shellac. Is that the same thing?

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by octoolguy

[FrankEV]

Krylon makes a spray "Sealer".  I found it at Hobby Lobby.  It is made for sealing canvases and wood that will be painted.  It smells and acts like a very thin Lacquer.  Dries quickly. Will not soak in too much unless the wood is real soft....Walnut should not absorb the sealer too much.

After painting and then sanding, the exposed wood should be like new so I would use Deft Lacquer, after sanding to min 600 grit, to coat the entire piece.  I like Lacquer and I feel it does a good job making the grain pop.    It works to protect the painted areas as well.  

Edited August 19, 2021 by FrankEV

[new2woodwrk]

Depending on the sheen you want...

Rather than paint the letters, I would use stain - I have used white and Black (Ebony) stain and it works out very nicely

Then If it were me, I would start with Lacquer - one coat over the whole thing to bring out the grain - dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

Next I'd do a thin coat of Polyurethane (again depending on the sheen you want)- dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

A final thick coat of Polyurethane to really provide a nice thick coat and sheen - dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

I've done this process (aside from the white/black stain) on a few of our recent projects as well as on a test subject - I use 1200 grit on my projects

It was perhaps the finest finish I've done on a piece to date. The key was the 12-24 hour wait time between coats

Can't wait to see what you come up with

 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, new2woodwrk said:

Depending on the sheen you want...

Rather than paint the letters, I would use stain - I have used white and Black (Ebony) stain and it works out very nicely

Then If it were me, I would start with Lacquer - one coat over the whole thing to bring out the grain - dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

Next I'd do a thin coat of Polyurethane (again depending on the sheen you want)- dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

A final thick coat of Polyurethane to really provide a nice thick coat and sheen - dry for 12-24 hours sand with 400-1200 grit

I've done this process (aside from the white/black stain) on a few of our recent projects as well as on a test subject - I use 1200 grit on my projects

It was perhaps the finest finish I've done on a piece to date. The key was the 12-24 hour wait time between coats

Can't wait to see what you come up with

 

Did you stain a carved out area? Just asking as the carving exposes all sorts of different grain patterns.. I think that's why the CNC guys use paint more often. With carved flat grain you get both edge grain, end grain and a flat grain surface to cover usually on each letter... we all know how stain takes differently on the ends and edges.. I'd think that would create a disaster. But again, I'm no finish expert when it comes to wood.. Not a expert in the auto painting either but I know my way around that stuff a lot more than wood.. since I did that body shop stuff for several years.  

[BadBob]

Shellac is what I would use.

 

[kmmcrafts]

Just an update on what I've researched on so far.. I found that a lot of the CNC sign maker guys use house paint rather than regular spray can paints.. One guy says you can go to Sherman Williams and buy small samples of paint but only in the interior paints, not exterior. This piece is going to be inside so that's not an issue for this piece. 

A large amount of folks on the CNC sites use either Lacquer or the water base Polyurethane which is why I bought that quart can of poly. I have "some" experience working with it as I have done a handful of carved signs just playing and learning the CNC and finishing process for carvings. My experience is I do like the poly as it dries fast and I have used it enough I'm comfortable with it, but it just doesn't pop the grain as well as dipping in Danish oil that I normally use for scrolled projects.. though I never paint scroll work. 

I've used Shellac years ago.. but I haven't experienced messing with in and painting over it etc.. I do know it does pop the grain like I'm looking for but really don't want to mess up this project either.. don't have a lot of hours into this yet but have used a large amount of wood since I've made three of these so far.. This thing is big and requires glue-ups as it is 16" diameter. Though as many times as I've made it.. I now can carve and cut this out within an hour so long as the glue ups are ready to go, LOL

I'm kinda torn on just using what I know ( the poly ), or using Shellac, OR, going with a Danish oil.. let dry a week and then proceed with the poly that I normally use.. Meanwhile while deciding I have a ton of sanding to do on it, LOL.. really don't want to have to make this again, LOL  Hoping to start finishing process by Monday morning.. so I guess I need to make a decision and send it, LOL

[Bill WIlson]

Which is why I recommend testing on some scrap.  Try different methods to see which works best, rather than risk messing up a finished cutting.

Shellac is very easy to remove, if need be.  De-natured alcohol will dissolve it.  It will also stick to almost any other finish and most will readily stick to it, provided it is de-waxed.  Zinnser Seal Coat is de-waxed shellac.

[Bill WIlson]

On 8/19/2021 at 3:12 PM, octoolguy said:

Bill, when you say "shellac" are you referring to the type you mix yourself or the pre-mixed? Just want to be clear as I'm learning too. Finishing is my downfall at this point. I can cut anything but the finishing is where I lose it.

To edit, I've been using Zinnser's spray shellac. Is that the same thing?

 

 

Either will work.  I typically use the Zinnser pre-mixed stuff.  It comes in 2 types, Seal Coat is de-waxed and recommended for use as a primer/barrier/sealer coat which will stick to most anything and most anything sticks to it.  Zinnser Bulls Eye pre-mixed shellac contains natural wax and is a very nice top coat, but some finishes (such as polyurethane) may not stick to it very well.  It can still be used as a sealer or barrier coating, but you just have to be more careful what finish you put over it.

You can buy flakes and mix your own shellac.  You can get them with the natural wax or de-waxed and they come in a large variety of shades.  You have to plan ahead to use flakes, as it takes time for them to dissolve completely.  I typically grind them very fine, with a cheap electric coffee grinder, but it still takes some time before it's ready to use.

 

Now about the spray.  The label says it's Bull's Eye Shellac.  That would imply that it is waxed, same as the liquid Bull's Eye.  However, I think I read someplace that the spray can version is de-waxed, so the labeling makes it confusing.  There may be clarification on their website, but I never looked for it.

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

Either will work.  I typically use the Zinnser pre-mixed stuff.  It comes in 2 types, Seal Coat is de-waxed and recommended for use as a primer/barrier/sealer coat which will stick to most anything and most anything sticks to it.  Zinnser Bulls Eye pre-mixed shellac contains natural wax and is a very nice top coat, but some finishes (such as polyurethane) may not stick to it very well.  It can still be used as a sealer or barrier coating, but you just have to be more careful what finish you put over it.

You can buy flakes and mix your own shellac.  You can get them with the natural wax or de-waxed and they come in a large variety of shades.  You have to plan ahead to use flakes, as it takes time for them to dissolve completely.  I typically grind them very fine, with a cheap electric coffee grinder, but it still takes some time before it's ready to use.

 

Now about the spray.  The label says it's Bull's Eye Shellac.  That would imply that it is waxed, same as the liquid Bull's Eye.  However, I think I read someplace that the spray can version is de-waxed, so the labeling makes it confusing.  There may be clarification on their website, but I never looked for it.

I can't find anywhere on the can that deciphers if it's waxed or de-waxed.. It does say something on the back about not for use as a sealer and to use bulls eye shellac seal coat or something along those lines. It also mentioned something about not top coating it with poly etc. 

I'm trying to not to have to go buy a special product for this one time use.. I read my Minwax poly spray can and I use two types.. one is a brown / gold color can and I think maybe oil based as it does somewhat make the grain pop like I'm after. So in reading the blue can ( water based ) it mentioned it can be applied over oil base stains and other minwax products.. now I'm thinking about trying a coat of that and then coating the second coat with the water base. Most water based stuff can dang near spray over anything.. I know lacquer and some other paints do not mix well.. at least in the auto paints.. so I'm hesitant to use the lacquer and then paint my colors and then top coat with the lacquer over the whole thing.. That could be a disaster.. done that years ago by painting a car that had un-baked un-hardened enamel and I used a lacquer primer on it.. the lacquer melted and lifted the enamel paint like a paint stripper would.. ended with stripping the whole car down to metal after that, Not a good day there, LOL

[Jim McDonald]

Kevin, when I made the ringbearer box for my son's wedding, I stamped the date into the lid and then filled the letters with black Unicorn Spit. Used a very fine brush and only had minimal clean up to do.

Now, I understand stamping the letters probably broke the capillary action of the grain preventing and wicking.

Picture was shot before I put the final semi gloss lacquer coats.

[kmmcrafts]

14 minutes ago, Jim McDonald said:

Kevin, when I made the ringbearer box for my son's wedding, I stamped the date into the lid and then filled the letters with black Unicorn Spit. Used a very fine brush and only had minimal clean up to do.

Now, I understand stamping the letters probably broke the capillary action of the grain preventing and wicking.

Picture was shot before I put the final semi gloss lacquer coats.

Unicorn spit  that's a new one for me, I had to look it up. Still not exactly sure what it is but at least I know now I won't need to go find a unicorn and try to get it to spit in a container, .

In the past projects I've done I just used spray paint and after it's all dried good I just sanded the surface and whatever is carved the paint stays.. But I have seen where some will use a artist brush and try to keep the paint from going on the main surface. I think I'm going to try painting it in with a brush like that.. might have to look into the unicorn spit a bit more.. most the sign makers on the CNC site use acrylic craft paints or some use the house paint as I mentioned above also have a few using spray paints like I have done in the past.. but boy that can be a mess if you don't get a real good covering of seal coating on it.. and never try it without a seal coat of something first.. especially on red oak... don't ask how I know that one, LOL  

Anyway thanks to teaching me about unicorn spit..

[kmmcrafts]

I did this carving from Maple last fall and used the water base poly.. about three coats.. then just spray painted the whole board.. sanded the top surface back to the wood color and top coated with a couple more coats of the poly.. Pictures kinda suck but you get the idea.. running the orbital sander on it with the holes for dust collection in the papers.. got caught on the points of some of the stars and broke them off. 

 I might just stick to what I know with this project.. and use the water based poly but instead of spray paint I think I'll hand paint with small brush for less sanding / clean up.  Because I need to get it finished up and out of here.. Just wish the water based poly made the grain stand out at you like a oil finish does.. either way I think the customer is going to love it no matter how I finish it up.. 

[BadBob]

22 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I found that a lot of the CNC sign maker guys use house paint rather than regular spray can paints..

You can get sample cans at Home Depot interior or exterior. Lowe's has them too, but I don't have much experience with these.

 

[Bill WIlson]

13 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I can't find anywhere on the can that deciphers if it's waxed or de-waxed.. It does say something on the back about not for use as a sealer and to use bulls eye shellac seal coat or something along those lines. It also mentioned something about not top coating it with poly etc. 

I'm trying to not to have to go buy a special product for this one time use.. I read my Minwax poly spray can and I use two types.. one is a brown / gold color can and I think maybe oil based as it does somewhat make the grain pop like I'm after. So in reading the blue can ( water based ) it mentioned it can be applied over oil base stains and other minwax products.. now I'm thinking about trying a coat of that and then coating the second coat with the water base. Most water based stuff can dang near spray over anything.. I know lacquer and some other paints do not mix well.. at least in the auto paints.. so I'm hesitant to use the lacquer and then paint my colors and then top coat with the lacquer over the whole thing.. That could be a disaster.. done that years ago by painting a car that had un-baked un-hardened enamel and I used a lacquer primer on it.. the lacquer melted and lifted the enamel paint like a paint stripper would.. ended with stripping the whole car down to metal after that, Not a good day there, LOL

I had to dig an old can out of the trash and put on my reading glasses to read the small print, but on the back of the Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac spray can, under the USES section, it states; "Because Spray Shellac is 100% wax free, it can be used as a sealer under polyurethane and other finishes." 

As I said earlier, if you are using the liquid pre-mix, choose the Zinsser SealCoat.  It is de-waxed shellac.  The liquid shellac that is called Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac, contains wax and should not be used as a sealer if you intend to top coat with polyurethane.

To summarize;

Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac, in the spray can = De-waxed

Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac, liquid pre-mix = contains wax

Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat, liquid pre-mix = De-Waxed

[kmmcrafts]

Okay thank you Bill, I got to go to the hardware store anyway so maybe I'll grab a couple spray cans of it. I know what you mean about the small print. I use reading glasses but never have them in the shop.. so I took my quart can and sat at my saw under the mag light to read mine, LOL.. was still a struggle because the can is round and would go out of focus as I read. LOL

[kmmcrafts]

I ended up using 3 coats poly spray from the gold / brown can. Hand painted the lettering with acrylic paints and then sprayed a couple more coats of the poly clear. The white paint was painted first and not ever using these paints I think maybe it was old paint as it was very thick and kind of dried really fast. The black paint was more runny and brushed much better so thinking the white was old.. all in all it turned out all right.. to do it again I'd probably do things slightly different but everything was a fun learning experience and I got a acceptable product.  

[rjweb]

That really came out beautiful Kevin, RJ

[OCtoolguy]

7 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I ended up using 3 coats poly spray from the gold / brown can. Hand painted the lettering with acrylic paints and then sprayed a couple more coats of the poly clear. The white paint was painted first and not ever using these paints I think maybe it was old paint as it was very thick and kind of dried really fast. The black paint was more runny and brushed much better so thinking the white was old.. all in all it turned out all right.. to do it again I'd probably do things slightly different but everything was a fun learning experience and I got a acceptable product.  

Beautiful job Kevin!

 

[OCtoolguy]

Your mastery of finishing is my downfall. I hope someday my skills in that area can equal yours.

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Your mastery of finishing is my downfall. I hope someday my skills in that area can equal yours.

I think it was luck, as I really don't know much about wood finishes or even finishing wood. Wood finishing is so much different than auto finishing.. wood has grain and texture even when you sand it to its smoothest state it's still got texture. Wood also will soak up a lot of the finish. Auto primer will soak up paints too but the cost of auto paints it just makes sense to spray sealer over any primed surface before spraying the paint. 

Having a history of spraying paint possibly does help some in laying out a nice even coat.  

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I think it was luck, as I really don't know much about wood finishes or even finishing wood. Wood finishing is so much different than auto finishing.. wood has grain and texture even when you sand it to its smoothest state it's still got texture. Wood also will soak up a lot of the finish. Auto primer will soak up paints too but the cost of auto paints it just makes sense to spray sealer over any primed surface before spraying the paint. 

Having a history of spraying paint possibly does help some in laying out a nice even coat.  

I don't have the ability or the equipment to do any real spraying. Rattle cans and maybe the cheap air brush kit from H/F will have to suffice. All of our homes here are on antiquted power systems. 50 amp per home max. So, no big conpressor for me.

[kmmcrafts]

3 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I don't have the ability or the equipment to do any real spraying. Rattle cans and maybe the cheap air brush kit from H/F will have to suffice. All of our homes here are on antiquted power systems. 50 amp per home max. So, no big conpressor for me.

That's too bad.. I'd be lost without my large air compressor and my welders etc.. 

I sprayed this with project with spray cans. I haven't really run any wood finishes in my spray equipment yet. I bought quart cans to do that though, just haven't done it because I don't like the thought of cleaning them every time I'm done. Think I'm going to buy a cheap spray gun to use just for woodwork stuff once I get my CNC into production mode. I like the sprayer someone posted the other day that just used mason jars for the canister.. then I can maybe keep finish in a jar and cleaner in another and be able to somewhat seal the finish with a cap / lid for later use. Also thought about that air brush as it looked to have multiple containers.. but not sure how / if it could be sealed with a lid out not.