bossdriver Posted October 16, 2021 Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 Today, the cam lock on the front of my Hawk saw stopped working. It won't say locked down, so I can't adjust the tension at the rear of the saw. My model is # 226 M, serial# 0789. I bought the saw used but have had it for several years now and it has been a great saw. I have a manual for this model, but it has different looking parts in the parts page. Maybe the saw has been upgraded, altered at some time? I just emailed RBI and hope they have some ideas of how this can be fixed. I know some of you are also Hawk owners and maybe have run into this problem in the past, if so..........help! Mike OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCtoolguy Posted October 16, 2021 Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 Sounds like the cam lever may be worn out. @kevin can probably be of more help. Just wait a bit and he'll chime in. He's never far away from the village. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneMahler Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 Don't have a Hawk but will follow for possible future use. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 Three things affect the tension and can cause the front cam lever to not hold in the tensioned position. The wedge shaped thing at the back of the saw on the upper arm.. If the edge of the wedge gets rounded over the tension usually will hold until you turn the saw on and it gets to speed sometimes it'll pop the lever at the front of the saw.. This is usually noticed before it gets to that point though as it'll usually start snapping blades as when that gets rounded over it'll make the blade tension fluctuate as the saw is running. IF the wedge isn't too worn.. you can try to sand it to a point again to get by for a while.. Just place a sandpaper maybe around 220 grit or finer on a flat surface and sand each side of the wedge to get the rounded off part of it back to a point.. It is a fine point too. almost to a sharp edge.. Another issue can be the upper arm where that wedge I previously discussed can also be worn.. depending on age of the saw.. some of them the wedge rides right onto the saws upper arm, while other saws have a round insert that is replaceable.. IF you have the older style you may need to take the arm off and send it to Bushton.. they'll drill it out IF it's not worn so bad and make it so you can put those replaceable inserts in it. NOW for the most likely problem.. There is a cam on the front of the upper arm on the tension lever and those wear out.. Really going to depend on what vintage saw you have.. as there are different styles. The newer styles will have a set screw to adjust the "locking position" on the lever for the cam. It's a very small set screw and hard to see.. but look on the bottom of the upper arm just below where the lever goes into the arm.. there will be a tiny hole there where you can adjust the locking position. This should have some tension on it and not fall freely to the top of the upper arm. Without a blade in the saw move the lever as if you was applying tension to a blade. You should get some resistance in the lever before it reaches all the way to the arm. Properly adjusted it should have some resistance about 1/8" - 1/4 before touching the upper arm. IF you have no adjustment allen screw you'll have to replace the cam assembly.. I suggest getting the upgraded one that has the set screw.. The upgraded kit comes with a whole new front assembly with new style blade clamp etc.. It cost $50 and very well worth it.. I'll see if I can post some pictures a little later today to show the locations of the set screw and the position of the tension lever when it's adjusted correctly. I do have a busy day ahead of me so we'll see if I actually get time to do this, LOL Mark SW and OCtoolguy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 A big thank you to Kevin for his very informed and educated answer to my problem. I am looking forward to your picture of the adjustment screw. I will do some tinkering tomorrow as today is not a "workshop" day. I hope that RBI will answer my email with some input as well. I'll post my success/failure after "tinkering" Mike OCtoolguy and Mark SW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCtoolguy Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bossdriver said: A big thank you to Kevin for his very informed and educated answer to my problem. I am looking forward to your picture of the adjustment screw. I will do some tinkering tomorrow as today is not a "workshop" day. I hope that RBI will answer my email with some input as well. I'll post my success/failure after "tinkering" Mike There may be something on Youtube also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 Kevin, I took a quick look at my saw and it doesn't have the adjustment hole (screw) under the tension lever. Also, it doesn't have the round insert in the arm where the wedge fits. So, maybe I should consider sending RBI the arm to have them insert the round part and update the front tension cam, etc. What do you think? Mike OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCtoolguy Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bossdriver said: Kevin, I took a quick look at my saw and it doesn't have the adjustment hole (screw) under the tension lever. Also, it doesn't have the round insert in the arm where the wedge fits. So, maybe I should consider sending RBI the arm to have them insert the round part and update the front tension cam, etc. What do you think? Mike Probably not a bad idea. It really depends on how old your saw is. There are so many used Hawks on the market that you might be able to upgrade by getting a newer version of your saw. I bought one a while back, a 226 Ultra with all the latest stuff that had been added prior to their newest model. I paid $250 for it and it only had about 20 hours on it. Depending on where you live, keep an eye on Marketplace on FB and Craigslist. But, try to educate yourself on all the nuances of the Hawks. There have been many changes and upgrades to their saws. It sounds like yours is an old model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) Given the serial number you shown is a very low number and you have the one with the M.. at one time I knew what that M stood for but have forgotten now, LOL Anyway I'm guessing you have a mid - late 80's saw.. I could be wrong but it's certainly not from the late 90's. Guessing you have the round lower blade clamp / holder.. Also guessing you have the old style tension cam that doesn't have the adjustable set screw on the bottom of the lever area. The wedge at the back wouldn't have the insert ( which you already confirmed that ). I forgot I did a short video clip to help out another Hawk owner on how to adjust that set screw so here is a link to my video I put on youtube a year or so ago.. In the video notice how the lever gets resistance before it reaches the arm.. that helps "lock" the lever in place.. IF your saw was upgraded to the newer style it would have the set screw in it and just needs adjusted.. IF no set screw and your tension lever just flops freely all the way down to the arm then you need to replace the cam.. I'd recommend upgrading to the new style so you can adjust it. Anyway here is the video link. I'm going to edit this reply shortly with some pictures of the set screw and the updated kit pictures on my saw etc. This photo is of the set screw.. notice the screw is right in line of the tension lever.. this is the bottom of the upper arm.. This is a photo of the updated cam kit with the new style removable blade clamp / holder. This is installed on my 1993 220VS.. This is a photo of the lever on the 220VS with the updated kit and properly adjusted.. the lever stops right here and then you push it down to the arm to "lock" it. This is a photo of the back wedge on the 220VS.. Note the wedge rides right on the arm itself.. This is the wedge on my BM 226VS.. Note the wedge rides on the round insert that when worn can be easily replaced.. rather than having to send in the arm and have it machined. This is the 226VS Ultra front blade holder.. it is a 1998 saw and has the older style upper cam and clamp.. however they did add the replaceable cam and set screw to this but once this wears out I'll upgrade to the new one like I did on the 220VS. Just another angle of the 226VS clamp Edited October 17, 2021 by kmmcrafts OCtoolguy and Mark SW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, bossdriver said: Kevin, I took a quick look at my saw and it doesn't have the adjustment hole (screw) under the tension lever. Also, it doesn't have the round insert in the arm where the wedge fits. So, maybe I should consider sending RBI the arm to have them insert the round part and update the front tension cam, etc. What do you think? Mike I suppose that is up to you if you wanted to do that, I inquired about doing the same thing to my 1993 220VS.. I don't remember now what the cost was but it wasn't a cheap repair.. They may not even offer the service anymore now.. I know they are doing less and less of supporting these old old saws.. I want to say it was around $300 to machine the arm and the cost of the insert and new wedge etc.. and shipping it back etc.. I decided against doing it.. My thought was to part out the saw or something once it got to that point.. that saw was used hard and not real well taken care of when I bought it..had many hours of use.. I gave $100 for it and basically rebuilt it.. That arm isn't worn out now so I doubt I'll wear it out myself since it's more of a back-up saw.. Actually have it for sale on the FB marketplace as I never use it anymore since I bought the new Hawk a couple years ago. The biggest wear part on these saws in my opinion is the cam and the little set screw, so long as you keep them oiled up as suggested in the manual Edited October 17, 2021 by kmmcrafts OCtoolguy and Mark SW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 Kevin, Thanks again for all your help with this problem. After reading your latest response and pondering how far and how much $$ I want to spend fixing this old Hawk saw, I'm coming to the conclusion that it will be better for me to just replace the saw. I have a working DeWalt saw, so I'm not out of business entirely. I think I will probably buy a Pegas saw, since it has many features that I would like. I know they are out of stock right now but I can wait. I think the Hawk stand would make a very stable table for the Pegas saw, and I would not want to scrap it out. Thanks again for all the help. Mike OCtoolguy, Mark SW and kmmcrafts 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 21 minutes ago, bossdriver said: Kevin, Thanks again for all your help with this problem. After reading your latest response and pondering how far and how much $$ I want to spend fixing this old Hawk saw, I'm coming to the conclusion that it will be better for me to just replace the saw. I have a working DeWalt saw, so I'm not out of business entirely. I think I will probably buy a Pegas saw, since it has many features that I would like. I know they are out of stock right now but I can wait. I think the Hawk stand would make a very stable table for the Pegas saw, and I would not want to scrap it out. Thanks again for all the help. Mike Since I don't know the condition of the saw etc.. or if you even like it.. but I personally think it's probably just the tension cam that has went bad.. I'd think the saw would be worth $50 for the updated tension update kit. It's quite simple to change. I don't think the stand is wide enough to mount the Pegas directly to it.. if you go that route.. just a FYI.. The Pegas has sort of a wide foot print for the mounting holes. I almost ordered a new Pegas a few days ago as woodcraft had the "old price" and I had a coupon code that would have made the total with shipping less than $900 and that's less than the new price.. as the new price is $940 + tax and shipping.. I could have got it for $880 shipped.. I pondered too long and went back 2-3 days later and they updated to the new price.. now well over $1100 shipped.. Oh well.. Their prices are flirting with with those prices of the new Hawk and Hegners.. I just don't see the longevity of these parallel link arm style saws being all that great.. I doubt you'll see many used 30 -40 year old Pegas saws still floating around the classified ads like you see Hawk and Hegners.. Not saying they are not a good saw.. as they are.. but that said.. priced close to those saws that are built and proven to last 30 - 40 years.. with only a couple hundred more you could buy a lifetime saw with little to no breakdowns.. or better yet.. buy a slightly used and save a ton of money.. a lot of Hawk and Hegners out there for half the price of the new Pegas and still out live the new Pegas.. Not sure what part of west MI you're from ( I'm also west MI ) but there is a decent newer style Hegner on Craiglist for $275.. no pictures this time he listed it but it was on a couple month back with pictures.. It's in Lansing.. might be worth looking at.. or get that nice new shiny Pegas that you want.. LOL just know there are lots of cheaper options.. OCtoolguy and Scrappile 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCtoolguy Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 13 hours ago, kmmcrafts said: Since I don't know the condition of the saw etc.. or if you even like it.. but I personally think it's probably just the tension cam that has went bad.. I'd think the saw would be worth $50 for the updated tension update kit. It's quite simple to change. I don't think the stand is wide enough to mount the Pegas directly to it.. if you go that route.. just a FYI.. The Pegas has sort of a wide foot print for the mounting holes. I almost ordered a new Pegas a few days ago as woodcraft had the "old price" and I had a coupon code that would have made the total with shipping less than $900 and that's less than the new price.. as the new price is $940 + tax and shipping.. I could have got it for $880 shipped.. I pondered too long and went back 2-3 days later and they updated to the new price.. now well over $1100 shipped.. Oh well.. Their prices are flirting with with those prices of the new Hawk and Hegners.. I just don't see the longevity of these parallel link arm style saws being all that great.. I doubt you'll see many used 30 -40 year old Pegas saws still floating around the classified ads like you see Hawk and Hegners.. Not saying they are not a good saw.. as they are.. but that said.. priced close to those saws that are built and proven to last 30 - 40 years.. with only a couple hundred more you could buy a lifetime saw with little to no breakdowns.. or better yet.. buy a slightly used and save a ton of money.. a lot of Hawk and Hegners out there for half the price of the new Pegas and still out live the new Pegas.. Not sure what part of west MI you're from ( I'm also west MI ) but there is a decent newer style Hegner on Craiglist for $275.. no pictures this time he listed it but it was on a couple month back with pictures.. It's in Lansing.. might be worth looking at.. or get that nice new shiny Pegas that you want.. LOL just know there are lots of cheaper options.. Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 Well, I think you are right, Kevin... That is a lot of money for that kind of saw... but the price of all saws are going to go up in todays environment... The Hawk is the only American made that I know of,,,so eventually the saw you order will be sitting out off the coast rusting while it is waiting to get unloaded.... I guess that is way I keep looking far that one saw for sell on Craigslist,, that I just can't refuse... Having a few spares may be the only way to keep scrolling.. Coarse none of the blades are US made either,,, and you can't get spray adhesives,... and other supplies... BB, ..... kmmcrafts and OCtoolguy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark SW Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 Since I ordered my new Hawk (BM20) September 30th I am following this topic. I am hoping to receive it in a week or two. Kevin has a endless wealth of knowledge as does everyone here. On a side note if you have not you need to take time and read his blog about how he got started. Very inspirational. My Scroll Sawing Story (kevskrafts.com) kmmcrafts and OCtoolguy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Scrappile said: Well, I think you are right, Kevin... That is a lot of money for that kind of saw... but the price of all saws are going to go up in todays environment... The Hawk is the only American made that I know of,,,so eventually the saw you order will be sitting out off the coast rusting while it is waiting to get unloaded.... I guess that is way I keep looking far that one saw for sell on Craigslist,, that I just can't refuse... Having a few spares may be the only way to keep scrolling.. Coarse none of the blades are US made either,,, and you can't get spray adhesives,... and other supplies... BB, ..... Actually I think the "super sharps " blades from P.S. Woods is made in the USA and their brand scroll saws are also USA made.. LOL I have not tried those super sharp blades yet.. Been wanting to give them a try.. I've heard they are awesome blades.. BUT.. pricey too, LOL Scrappile and OCtoolguy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) Kevin, It looks to me that to install the updated cam kit you just need to drive out the roll pin that is holding the old one in. Then, install the new style cam and holder using the roll pin. Is this somewhat the idea? Thanks again for all your time spent trying to help me. I agree that I would gladly spend $50 to get my saw working again. I haven't gotten an answer from BMI yet. I want to ask them if they have this kit, the price , and if they have instructions on how it is installed. I left them an email yesterday and left a voicemail message today. Mike BTW I live in Grand Rapids SW area, actually Wyoming, MI. Edited October 18, 2021 by bossdriver OCtoolguy and Mark SW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 18, 2021 Report Share Posted October 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, bossdriver said: Kevin, It looks to me that to install the updated cam kit you just need to drive out the roll pin that is holding the old one in. Then, install the new style cam and holder using the roll pin. Is this somewhat the idea? Thanks again for all your time spent trying to help me. I agree that I would gladly spend $50 to get my saw working again. I haven't gotten an answer from BMI yet. I want to ask them if they have this kit, the price , and if they have instructions on how it is installed. I left them an email yesterday and left a voicemail message today. Yes, just press out the roll pin and take the old parts off and reverse the procedure to install the new kit. They have been pretty good about putting on the webstore that things are out of stock.. and when they say they are out of stock they typically disable the add to cart button.. This is the kit you need and it's not showing out of stock.. https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/upper-blade-holder-bracket-conversion-kit/ I would still get confirmation from them to be sure it'll work on your saw. I'm pretty sure your saw is quite a lot older than my 220VS is.. I did the update 3-4 years ago but back then I was pretty sure she told me it'd work on any of the saws.. One thing you can do and they are the ones that told me this.. you can get by using the saw for a while by using a rubber band and wrap it around the upper arm to " hold " the tension lever in the tensioned position. When I bought my 220VS the previous owner had a piece of wire wrapped around it to hold it down, LOL.. I used it this way for nearly a year before ordering the update kit. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 Kevin, I did order this kit last night and it looks to me like it should work. I haven't been able to get any answers from RBI so $50 is not too big of an investment. They did send an order confirmation, but I think this is digitally answered by machine, not by a person. Today, I removed the roll pin plus the blade holder and attempted to drive the tension lever arm out but no luck so far. I removed the arm from the machine and put it in a vise and am trying to drive it out (tension lever arm) but it isn't working so far. I don't want to ruin it so I will wait until I get the kit and see if there are any instructions about this. Do you remember taking this part off? Was it hard to drive out? Maybe it will have to be drilled out? Mike Mark SW and OCtoolguy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCtoolguy Posted October 19, 2021 Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, bossdriver said: Kevin, I did order this kit last night and it looks to me like it should work. I haven't been able to get any answers from RBI so $50 is not too big of an investment. They did send an order confirmation, but I think this is digitally answered by machine, not by a person. Today, I removed the roll pin plus the blade holder and attempted to drive the tension lever arm out but no luck so far. I removed the arm from the machine and put it in a vise and am trying to drive it out (tension lever arm) but it isn't working so far. I don't want to ruin it so I will wait until I get the kit and see if there are any instructions about this. Do you remember taking this part off? Was it hard to drive out? Maybe it will have to be drilled out? Mike I would think that the lever would have some sort of bend/curve in it and won't be driven out. There must be another way. I'm not familiar with how it looks but from what I can imagine, it would have to have some sort of raised portion that would be rotated like a cam against a friction point. Maybe a picture would be in order. Also, have you checked Youtube for an instructional video? I would think by now somebody would have made one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 19, 2021 Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 I wish I could remember how this is done for sure.. but I think you have to push the roll pin out first.. then I think there is a set screw that holds the "cam portion" to the lever as they are separate pieces and something has to hold the cam in place.. But I think once the roll pin is out and you take the front portion off the upper arm.. I think the cam will have a set screw to take loose and then the lever would come out. When I go back out to the shop later I'll see if I kept my old parts and look them over to be sure that is how it was assembled. When I got my kit Bushton did send me instruction sheet with it.. I hope they still do this as that would be helpful for you. I doubt I still have the sheet.. If I do I'd probably never find it anyway, LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted October 19, 2021 Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 31 minutes ago, OCtoolguy said: I would think that the lever would have some sort of bend/curve in it and won't be driven out. There must be another way. I'm not familiar with how it looks but from what I can imagine, it would have to have some sort of raised portion that would be rotated like a cam against a friction point. Maybe a picture would be in order. Also, have you checked Youtube for an instructional video? I would think by now somebody would have made one. I probably should do some videos on saw repairs for these.. IF I was running their business, I'd for sure have plenty of how to videos for using the saw, tuning the saw, and saw repairs.. These videos can really promote your business.. I have not seen any saw manufacture go very in depth with these things.. some will show the saws features etc.. but that's about it.. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark SW Posted October 19, 2021 Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 Mike ,I don't if this helps but here are multiple manuals. Scroll-Saw-Manuals (hawkwoodworkingtools.com) OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossdriver Posted October 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) I just received an email from RBI regarding my upgrade kit that I ordered. They are out of stock on an important part and it will be 3-4 weeks until they get it in. I was asked if I wanted to wait or refund and re-order, I said I would wait. I did ask them to find a knowledgeable person to let me know if this upgrade kit will work on my model#/serial#. Hopefully, they will get back to me with this info. before they ship the kit. Mike Mark, Thanks for thinking of me, I have looked at those manuals and there isn't one that is totally correct for my saw. Too old??? I printed the one closest to my saw when I first got it. Edited October 19, 2021 by bossdriver OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark SW Posted October 19, 2021 Report Share Posted October 19, 2021 35 minutes ago, bossdriver said: I have looked at those manuals and there isn't one that is totally correct for my saw. Too old??? Darn, Hopefully you get your parts and phone call soon. Please keep us posted. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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