The difference between a Hegner and a Hawk

[Roberta Moreton]

I would like to know what the difference is between the 2 saws. Please

 

[OCtoolguy]

Very similar mechanisms but I think the main thing is how they are tensioned. I've have both and the Hegner has a tension rod that has to be tensioned every time you change blade holes unless it is a newer one or had the upgraded upper arm installed that has the rear tension release lever. Knowing what I do now, and if I had the space, I'd buy a Hawk mainly because of cost of maintenance and parts. The Hegners are very expensive if any parts are needed. Even their cheap plastic/rubber bellows is like $45 plus shipping. The Hawks can be repaired quite cheaply. I had the 26" Ultra and it was a big saw. I may at some point try to find a 20" Hawk. 

[Scrappile]

1 hour ago, OCtoolguy said:

Very similar mechanisms but I think the main thing is how they are tensioned. I've have both and the Hegner has a tension rod that has to be tensioned every time you change blade holes unless it is a newer one or had the upgraded upper arm installed that has the rear tension release lever. Knowing what I do now, and if I had the space, I'd buy a Hawk mainly because of cost of maintenance and parts. The Hegners are very expensive if any parts are needed. Even their cheap plastic/rubber bellows is like $45 plus shipping. The Hawks can be repaired quite cheaply. I had the 26" Ultra and it was a big saw. I may at some point try to find a 20" Hawk. 

Ha,,, "cheap plastic/rubber bellows is like $45". that is not cheap to me!  But you could look at it this way, my Hegner is 11 years old,,, been rode hard and put away wet, but the bellow still looks fine... So if I get a few more year out of the bellows, say, 3, just to stay with even numbers....... 14 years (get it?, even numbers), that is only $3.21 a year.  Now figure that with repairs on other cheaper saws that may not and probably will not last the long, with as much use, needing major repairs or replaced... I will keep my Hegner..  Hawk probably averages out about the same,, I do no know..

Really, to me the major differences are simple preferences.. The Hegner will not top feed.. the Hawk will.  Maybe the Hawk table is bigger, I do not know.  Maybe the Hawk table will tilt more in both directions than the Hegner, I do not know.... Both are work horses, both are great saws and for what I do scrolling, I would be happy with either, I think.  I have never had the privilege of scrolling with a Hawk... I sure would like to..  The major things to me on my Hegner are, if I need help/customer service for my Hegner it will be there, if I need parts they well be there.. Maybe/maybe not so much on the current Hawk... but the seems to be improving..

[OCtoolguy]

7 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Ha,,, "cheap plastic/rubber bellows is like $45". that is not cheap to me!  But you could look at it this way, my Hegner is 11 years old,,, been rode hard and put away wet, but the bellow still looks fine... So if I get a few more year out of the bellows, say, 3, just to stay with even numbers....... 14 years (get it?, even numbers), that is only $3.21 a year.  Now figure that with repairs on other cheaper saws that may not and probably will not last the long, with as much use, needing major repairs or replaced... I will keep my Hegner..  Hawk probably averages out about the same,, I do no know..

Really, to me the major differences are simple preferences.. The Hegner will not top feed.. the Hawk will.  Maybe the Hawk table is bigger, I do not know.  Maybe the Hawk table will tilt more in both directions than the Hegner, I do not know.... Both are work horses, both are great saws and for what I do scrolling, I would be happy with either, I think.  I have never had the privilege of scrolling with a Hawk... I sure would like to..  The major things to me on my Hegner are, if I need help/customer service for my Hegner it will be there, if I need parts they well be there.. Maybe/maybe not so much on the current Hawk... but the seems to be improving..

Why is it Paul, every used Hegner that I look at has a bad bellows or none at all? Not that that is all that important but it's just an example I through out there. My point is that the parts for Hegners, all of them, are very expensive when the need arises. And their shipping seems exorbitant too.

I've never seen a Hawk with a bad bellows. Rubber as compared to whatever that stuff is on the Hegner. Anyway, I've used both saws. I liked the Hawk that I had but it was just too big for my shop. Right now I've get 2 Hegners, trying to sell one of them. They both run quite well and take up very little space. I'm not in love with their stands but that's just me. If I was offered either saw for free or at a good price, I'd not bat an eye at either one. And you are right, the Hegners will always have parts and customer service unless something drastic happens. I think that Bushton has finally gotten it figured out and will continue to improve their operation. As I stated, I'd not be gun shy of either one. Top feeding for me is not an issue. 

 

[Scrappile]

Ray, I can not answer about the bellows.. unless it is an age issue or Germans may not know how to make good rubber... I do not know where Hawk originated,,, I think America... Whoops,, another reason for Americans to buy Hawk over Hegner I guess...

[kmmcrafts]

I suppose it depends on what vintage and model of Hawk.. Hawk made a lot of changes through the years.. If you're talking new Hawk vrs. new Hegner.. There are big differences.. 

Hawk has large table - Hegner doesn't

Hawk comes standard with light mounting - optional for hegner at a additional price

Hawk has adjustable blade aggression - don't think Hegner has that?

Hawk doesn't need additional blade holders for various sized blades - Henger does and only comes with one, you get to pay extra if you need different balde holder sizes.

Hawk has quick toolless blade holders -  additional cost for Hegner

Hawk can feed blade from top or bottom - Hegner bottom feed only

Hawk made with real sealed bearings - Hegner made with bronze bushings

Hawk has hold down mechanism for upper arm for easy top feeding - can't top feed from Hegner so no need

Hawk parts including body of saw all machined high grade aluminum - Hegner uses a lot of cast aluminum or iron.

Hawk SPM ( speed ) 125 -1750  - Hegner is 300 - 1700

Hawk has no dust collection fitting for Vacuum - Hegner does

Hegner has adjustable length blade stroke - Hawk doesn't

Hawk saws come with stand - Hegners do at additional cost.

Hawk 20" saw $1200 - Hegner 18" saw without stand $1395 or $1575 with stand

Hawks have a very strong powder coated finish on them - Hegners seem to have a cheap paint and most older saws look like they was dragged behind a car in the saltbelt in the winter.. seems every older Hegner has the paint half gone and rust 

Hawks largest saw is a 26" throat - Hegner is 22" saw. 

Hawk has had ( seems to be improving ) poor customer service and inventory of parts which can take a lot of time to get - Hegner has wonderful customer service and usually ahs parts on hand. 

I strongly looked at Hegner when I bought my new Hawk. Things that turned me off was the fact that parts are pricey and they come bare-bones no bells and whistles unless you pay extra for the needed / wanted things.. Hawk comes with most everything one would want / need on every standard saw. The small table was a big turnoff for me.. as is their seeming to want to Nickle and dime you to death for additional items that in my opinion should come with a saw and standard parts are very pricey.. I know there is nothing wrong with casted parts of the saw but I really like the fact that most every part on a Hawk is a machined part.. should Hawk go out of business and can't get parts.. a machine shop should be able to hook you up with what you need without too much trouble.. I chose Hawk for many reasons.. I have family and a neighbor that are machinist.. so I just felt if I needed something that Hawk can't get me.. I'll have it made..  

I think if one is mechanical inclined many of the wear parts for either saw could be had at a hardware store rather than going through dealers. ( springs, bearings / bushings etc. ) 

I know I'm missing some things but I gotta get back out to work.. If I think of more I'll post it later..

 

  

 

[OCtoolguy]

22 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I suppose it depends on what vintage and model of Hawk.. Hawk made a lot of changes through the years.. If you're talking new Hawk vrs. new Hegner.. There are big differences.. 

Hawk has large table - Hegner doesn't

Hawk comes standard with light mounting - optional for hegner at a additional price

Hawk has adjustable blade aggression - don't think Hegner has that?

Hawk doesn't need additional blade holders for various sized blades - Henger does and only comes with one, you get to pay extra if you need different balde holder sizes.

Hawk has quick toolless blade holders -  additional cost for Hegner

Hawk can feed blade from top or bottom - Hegner bottom feed only

Hawk made with real sealed bearings - Hegner made with bronze bushings

Hawk has hold down mechanism for upper arm for easy top feeding - can't top feed from Hegner so no need

Hawk parts including body of saw all machined high grade aluminum - Hegner uses a lot of cast aluminum or iron.

Hawk SPM ( speed ) 125 -1750  - Hegner is 300 - 1700

Hawk has no dust collection fitting for Vacuum - Hegner does

Hegner has adjustable length blade stroke - Hawk doesn't

Hawk saws come with stand - Hegners do at additional cost.

Hawk 20" saw $1200 - Hegner 18" saw without stand $1395 or $1575 with stand

Hawks have a very strong powder coated finish on them - Hegners seem to have a cheap paint and most older saws look like they was dragged behind a car in the saltbelt in the winter.. seems every older Hegner has the paint half gone and rust 

Hawks largest saw is a 26" throat - Hegner is 22" saw. 

Hawk has had ( seems to be improving ) poor customer service and inventory of parts which can take a lot of time to get - Hegner has wonderful customer service and usually ahs parts on hand. 

I strongly looked at Hegner when I bought my new Hawk. Things that turned me off was the fact that parts are pricey and they come bare-bones no bells and whistles unless you pay extra for the needed / wanted things.. Hawk comes with most everything one would want / need on every standard saw. The small table was a big turnoff for me.. as is their seeming to want to Nickle and dime you to death for additional items that in my opinion should come with a saw and standard parts are very pricey.. I know there is nothing wrong with casted parts of the saw but I really like the fact that most every part on a Hawk is a machined part.. should Hawk go out of business and can't get parts.. a machine shop should be able to hook you up with what you need without too much trouble.. I chose Hawk for many reasons.. I have family and a neighbor that are machinist.. so I just felt if I needed something that Hawk can't get me.. I'll have it made..  

I think if one is mechanical inclined many of the wear parts for either saw could be had at a hardware store rather than going through dealers. ( springs, bearings / bushings etc. ) 

I know I'm missing some things but I gotta get back out to work.. If I think of more I'll post it later..

 

  

 

Well done Kevin!

 

[Scrappile]

Well done @kmmcrafts, you know your stuff.. I would respond to some in Hegner's defense but just too darn tired right now from getting ready for the Holiday... And I may not respond to them.. I have learned on here, no matter what is said for or against a product,,, the person has usually already made up their mind and ordered what they were asking about.. Not saying that about this thread... just saying as a norm....and,, I am not big on telling someone which to buy... most of it is personal preference, anyway... I do not say any is best... I love my Hegner, but have not tried a Hawk... and besides I am just a grouchy old scroller anyway so my thoughts don't really mean much or even last more than a second in my head....!!   

[OCtoolguy]

49 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Well done @kmmcrafts, you know your stuff.. I would respond to some in Hegner's defense but just too darn tired right now from getting ready for the Holiday... And I may not respond to them.. I have learned on here, no matter what is said for or against a product,,, the person has usually already made up their mind and ordered what they were asking about.. Not saying that about this thread... just saying as a norm....and,, I am not big on telling someone which to buy... most of it is personal preference, anyway... I do not say any is best... I love my Hegner, but have not tried a Hawk... and besides I am just a grouchy old scroller anyway so my thoughts don't really mean much or even last more than a second in my head....!!   

Paul, I'm not sure what the OP had in mind but after having both saws, I would have trouble picking one of the other. The Hegner is a tank for sure and is the scroll saw that I got used to always seeing being demo'd at the wood shows. I ended up buying  a Hawk back in 1985 at one of those shows. I can't remember why I bought it but I just did. I never did use it and ended up selling it to a neighbor who still has it but has never used it. That saw has zero hours on it. I think for me it was the hard to change blades and the 2 speed belt driven mechanism. But it's so long ago, I'm not sure. Anyway, to my point. Both saws are great and are very much alike in many ways. I would not recommend one over the other. I think if a person buys either one and learns to use it as you have yours, they will have thousands of hours of use out of it with very little coinage out of the pocket. If a person is short of workspace, I highly recommend the Hegner as it has the smallest footprint of any of the saws that I know of.

 

[Dave Monk]

When I was ready to buy a saw a Hawk wouldn't be available for over a month and I was able to get a Hegner within a week. I bought my Hegner a little over four years ago. I scroll about 6 hours a day. I would guess I use my Pegas about an hour of that. I like my Pegas but I don't think is will hold up like my Hegner. I use it mainly when I'm doing something large and want to top feed and also my inlay work. The cost of the parts aren't even a factor for me on my Hegner since I have never had to buy a thing for it. One blade holder will hold every blade I use. The only two complaints I have with it is that I can't top feed with it and it would be nice if the top arm would raise a bit higher. I would buy another one in a heart beat. 

[OCtoolguy]

1 minute ago, Dave Monk said:

When I was ready to buy a saw a Hawk wouldn't be available for over a month and I was able to get a Hegner within a week. I bought my Hegner a little over four years ago. I scroll about 6 hours a day. I would guess I use my Pegas about an hour of that. I like my Pegas but I don't think is will hold up like my Hegner. I use it mainly when I'm doing something large and want to top feed and also my inlay work. The cost of the parts aren't even a factor for me on my Hegner since I have never had to buy a thing for it. One blade holder will hold every blade I use. The only two complaints I have with it is that I can't top feed with it and it would be nice if the top arm would raise a bit higher. I would buy another one in a heart beat. 

Dave, have you done any work to the upper arm stop? That's an easy fix for getting the arm up. I don't recommend cutting it all the way off though. When it goes up, it's nice that it has some sort of a stop. 

[Dave Monk]

1 minute ago, OCtoolguy said:

Dave, have you done any work to the upper arm stop? That's an easy fix for getting the arm up. I don't recommend cutting it all the way off though. When it goes up, it's nice that it has some sort of a stop. 

I haven't done any work to it and won't. The last thing I want to do is screw it up. I would think if you cut the stop off and put a new one lower when a blade brakes the top arm would snap up harder. Tinkering with equipment isn't my thing. I would much rather be making something. 

[kmmcrafts]

@Scrappile Well as I said, I strongly looked at getting a Hegner.. so I did research and did my homework to find the saw that I thought would best fit me.. I had already had the Excalibur and knew I didn't want a small table.. Hegners tables are sadly smaller than the EX's so that was a big turn off in my decision making.. that said, I know one could build / make a table top for it.. in my defense on that decision I guess my old stubborn head couldn't wrap around why I should have to do that when a Hawk already has that.. I'm in no way saying Hawk or Hegner is better than one or the other.. just stating the facts as I learned by my research. Both saws have been around for a lot of years.. Hegner made a really robust saw years ago and have done very few changes and upgrades to a well made design.. Hawk has made a lot of changes over the years from different blade clamps to making them have adjustable aggression of the blade etc.. they've tried to improve a good saw many times over the years.. Hegner is great but it also ( In My Opinion ) is outdated and could use some improvements for a more versatile saw that would appeal to a wider range of users.. as in some folks don't care about the smaller table.. or that it's bottom feed only.. no blade aggression adjustments etc. Not knocking the fact it doesn't have those features.. but for me those were important things.. others may not care.. I do like the Hegners smaller footprint and the stand seems like it would be more comfortable to sit behind.. 

I paid less money for the Hawk, and did so knowing that customer service and parts can be a pain to get.. That sucky customer service and parts sourcing isn't for everyone.. just as a Hawk isn't for everyone and a Hegner isn't for everyone either.. I've seen many complaints of users of both saws over the years.. I honestly chose Hawk for a couple main points.. and that was larger table and more updated features like the blade aggression adjustment.. and the fact that all the parts are machined so getting parts made if ever needed "could be" done..  

At the end of the day.. Both are awesome well built saws and I'm sure either one would last a lifetime of scrolling with minimal parts needed..  I've said this many times... You can have the best built saw, but if it's not user friendly to your style cutting you'll never really love it.. and that is how I seen the Hegner ( for me ) I didn't see me liking the table, and some of the other things..

  

[OCtoolguy]

5 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

I haven't done any work to it and won't. The last thing I want to do is screw it up. I would think if you cut the stop off and put a new one lower when a blade brakes the top arm would snap up harder. Tinkering with equipment isn't my thing. I would much rather be making something. 

I've heard of folks @charleyL cutting the stop clean off but in looking at mine I thought just grinding about a third of it would give it plenty more height and still have a good solid stop. I haven't done it to my saw and probably won't as I've not seen the need. I do need to replace the rubber bumper though. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by OCtoolguy

[Roberta Moreton]

I have an order for a turtle box. I also need an extra one to sell. The lid requires a 15 piece inlay.  The Excalibur will cut 1, maybe 2, and then the third is off, just a bit. I can’t figure out why. I have to do it on the Dewalt.  I am just checking options. There are 2 used saws near me, one Hawk, one Hegner. I do not understand how it can be user error when the Dewalt can do it.  To say I am frustrated is putting it mildly. Thanks for the information. 

[Dave Monk]

1 hour ago, Roberta Moreton said:

I have an order for a turtle box. I also need an extra one to sell. The lid requires a 15 piece inlay.  The Excalibur will cut 1, maybe 2, and then the third is off, just a bit. I can’t figure out why. I have to do it on the Dewalt.  I am just checking options. There are 2 used saws near me, one Hawk, one Hegner. I do not understand how it can be user error when the Dewalt can do it.  To say I am frustrated is putting it mildly. Thanks for the information. 

Love to see a picture what you are working on.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Roberta Moreton said:

I have an order for a turtle box. I also need an extra one to sell. The lid requires a 15 piece inlay.  The Excalibur will cut 1, maybe 2, and then the third is off, just a bit. I can’t figure out why. I have to do it on the Dewalt.  I am just checking options. There are 2 used saws near me, one Hawk, one Hegner. I do not understand how it can be user error when the Dewalt can do it.  To say I am frustrated is putting it mildly. Thanks for the information. 

If I had to take a wild guess I'd say it's possibly blade tension is the culprit. I run into the same issue somewhat.. with the tension on my EX, and I see many people talk about that issue too.. even with the Pegas chucks.. and Pegas saws. I don't know if it's blade slippage or sloppy threads or? where that mechanism is in the back of the EX.. For the majority of cutting it's not an issue.. but I find it difficult to keep / maintain tension throughout a larger cut on my EX.. always kinda blamed it on the China version.. BUT.. I see many complaints of the same thing on those other brands.. Scott ( Iggy ) had a Pegas and complain of this issue so he went back to DeWalts.. I don't think it's anything to do with the screws because I can put a brand new set screw and thumb screw in and the same thing happens.. This may not be anything to do with every EX style saw.. I think one flaw with these saws is not being able to adjust the tension.. other than turning the knob at the back and getting it out of alignment in doing so. For the most part this isn't an issue for me and if I need something precise I use the Hawk.. 

Since you mentioned inlay I'll say I don't really like the table adjustment mechanism on the Hawks.. especially the older ones. Not sure how the Hegner is but the Hawk is a pain in the behind to precisely adjust.. I don't think there is a perfect saw for every type of cutting.. I guess that's why I have so many saws, LOL  

Edited November 25, 2021 by kmmcrafts

[stoney]

Good information has been provided in this thread for Roberta.  I like Paul can't speak about Hawk as I have never owned or operated one, but I think I can speak about my long term 13+ years experience with my Hegner Multi Max 22v.  I agree parts are very expensive if you have the misfortune of having anything break or wear out.  So far (knock on wood) I have not had to replace anything and it has many many hours of use.  As many here know I have addressed and modified my saw to make it more user friendly.  I believe with proper use and maintenance it would last a life time.  From what I have read on this forum both Hawk and Hegner are great saws and Roberta would be able to enjoy one of them for many years.

[kmmcrafts]

Just to add another thought, 

Hegner has a soft start where it slowly ramps up to speed.. the older Hawks had this as well, but unfortunately the new Hawks do not.. hit the foot peddle and instant on at the speed you have it set at.. I kinda like the slower ramp up to speed option better.. but honestly I don't think any of the Excalibur or most other saws have the soft start option either..

I think Hegner has a better heavier duty motor.. But that said, I've never experienced a motor failure in any saw.. almost exclusively my issues had been bearing failures.

[OCtoolguy]

@Roberta Moreton, I too would love to see your project. Pics in different stages would be great. I love anything related to boxes bowls and baskets. Especially with inlay.

Edited November 25, 2021 by OCtoolguy

[jbrowning]

Here is my take and please remember this is how it is with me. I'm more comfortable with my Hegner 18V that I have. It did take a while to get it dialed in and sometimes I think I am still dialing it in. I have two 26" RBI Hawks and I am more comfortable with the Hegner then with the Hawks. All three saws were bought used a few years ago. I had the Hegner probably a few months before I bought one of the Hawks. My thinking was I would use the Hegner while standing up and then when my legs got tired and I needed to sit down I would use the Hawk. Well sitting down and using the Hawk has not worked out well for me. Might be because I haven't given it enough time to get comfortable with it. Also always got frustrated trying to put the blade into the bottom clamp while I was doing a interior cut. But with all the said. The Hegner and both Hawks all run fine with no problems. I believe they were all made in the late 90's of I remember correctly. Sorry for rambling on.

Thanks

Jim

[Roberta Moreton]

Turtle box pictures. Successful and slightly not successful.  Worse lids have been trashed.  

 

[OCtoolguy]

Very interesting Roberta. Thanks for the pics. Be sure to show us a finished one. Can you share the pattern?

[preprius]

Ooohhhh very good.   I like it. 

[Roberta Moreton]

The pattern was from Scroll Saw Woodworking and Crafts Magazine. I’m looking for the issue number