I made a mistake

[TAIrving]

I made a mistake, part 2 (see part 1 under "Other Woodworks")

Last year, in discussions in this forum about dust collection, we talked about vacuum cleaners for dust collection.  Per the discussions, I installed a small Oreck vacuum cleaner for use with my scroll saw.  I cleverly (or so I thought) wired it to turn off and on with the foot switch which also powered my scroll saw. 

The vacuum cleaner soon died and wound up in the trash bin.  I now have another Oreck dedicated to my scroll saw, not wired to my foot switch.  I turn this one on when I sit down at my scroll saw and turn it off when I leave the station.  The first one lasted a few months and this one is now going on a year. 

Conclusion: Vacuum cleaners (Orecks, cannot say about any other brands) are not designed for frequent turning on and off.  

[Frank Pellow]

22 minutes ago, TAIrving said:

I made a mistake, part 2 (see part 1 under "Other Woodworks")

Last year, in discussions in this forum about dust collection, we talked about vacuum cleaners for dust collection.  Per the discussions, I installed a small Oreck vacuum cleaner for use with my scroll saw.  I cleverly (or so I thought) wired it to turn off and on with the foot switch which also powered my scroll saw. 

The vacuum cleaner soon died and wound up in the trash bin.  I now have another Oreck dedicated to my scroll saw, not wired to my foot switch.  I turn this one on when I sit down at my scroll saw and turn it off when I leave the station.  The first one lasted a few months and this one is now going on a year. 

Conclusion: Vacuum cleaners (Orecks, cannot say about any other brands) are not designed for frequent turning on and off.  

Some vacuum cleaners are designed for that, but they are expensive. 

The Festool vacuum that I plan to hook up to the Pegas-21 I just purchased has served me well turning on and off in conjunction with many many tools at many many job sites for 17 years.

[kmmcrafts]

I don't think the MetroVac 5000 that Seyco sells as their Scroll Saw Dust Vac is really designed to turn on and off with a foot switch either but I've had this for two years now and run 400 hours on my saw.. still working very well.. I will note that.. while the dust bag doesn't really "fill up" since it has a dust deputy in the seyco kit.. The bag does get some really fine dust in it and really restricts the air flow.. I can tell by sound of the Vac motor that it's working harder by it being a bit louder.. I now take a air hose outside and blow the dust out of the bag every week or so and can surely notice a difference in performance and sound.. 

I guess my point is.. Is it possible that rather than the turning on / off with the foot switch that it could be clogged filter / air flow.. maybe a combo of that and turning on / off? If the air flow is blocked even a little on my vac system the vac body gets hotter.. in my system the air flow goes across the motor to "cool" the motor.. I also from time to time take the bag out and blow air with my air hose through the inside of the vac.. I notice sometimes the fine dust even escapes the bag and gets a coating of fine dust on the impeller and motor.. 

Anyway.. just some thoughts.. I'd certainly go nuts if the vac was on the whole time.. plus.. seems like it'd get hot.. don't seem like to me they're designed to run continually for hours either.. especially if some dust does escape to the motor.. could be a fire hazard if that gets hot enough with some dust on it.. Why I blow the dust out of mine periodically..  

[NC Scroller]

I think another big factor in the life of a vacuum is what kind of filter and how often it is cleaned / replaced.  

[Dan]

Also take a look at some of the newer and smaller dust collection systems. Probably a lot cheaper than buying a new vacuum every few years. 

[Roberta Moreton]

2 hours ago, Frank Pellow said:

Some vacuum cleaners are designed for that, but they are expensive. 

The Festool vacuum that I plan to hook up to the Pegas-21 I just purchased has served me well turning on and off in conjunction with many many tools at many many job sites for 17 years.

I have had a Festool hooked up to my EX21 since I got it. Years ago. Works great. 

[CharleyL]

There was a Craftsman power control module that you connected your power tool to, and then also your vacuum to a second outlet on it. Whenever you turned the tool on, a second or two later the module will turn the vacuum on. When you turn the tool off, the vacuum will continue a few seconds more, and then shut down. I have one of these, and use it with a Dust Deputy on a 5 gallon covered pail and a dust producing tool, like a sander, etc. The big benefit of this module is that both the tool and the vacuum are not starting and stopping at the same time, so one is not affecting the other. Brushes and switch contacts can get damaged when multiple brush type motors are switched on and off frequently at the same time and they are on the same circuit. Separating their start and stop times will prevent this. I can't guarantee that your vacuum will never die after connecting it to one of these modules, but it should make it last considerably longer. 

Another company is making these control modules. I've seen adds for them, but can't remember the company name.

Actually, with Lowes now selling Craftsman tools, they might be selling these modules too. I did a search for it on the Lowes website, but they, and Google, have dumbed down the search engines so they find everything but what is being searched for now.

Charley

 

[OCtoolguy]

4 hours ago, CharleyL said:

There was a Craftsman power control module that you connected your power tool to, and then also your vacuum to a second outlet on it. Whenever you turned the tool on, a second or two later the module will turn the vacuum on. When you turn the tool off, the vacuum will continue a few seconds more, and then shut down. I have one of these, and use it with a Dust Deputy on a 5 gallon covered pail and a dust producing tool, like a sander, etc. The big benefit of this module is that both the tool and the vacuum are not starting and stopping at the same time, so one is not affecting the other. Brushes and switch contacts can get damaged when multiple brush type motors are switched on and off frequently at the same time and they are on the same circuit. Separating their start and stop times will prevent this. I can't guarantee that your vacuum will never die after connecting it to one of these modules, but it should make it last considerably longer. 

Another company is making these control modules. I've seen adds for them, but can't remember the company name.

Actually, with Lowes now selling Craftsman tools, they might be selling these modules too. I did a search for it on the Lowes website, but they, and Google, have dumbed down the search engines so they find everything but what is being searched for now.

Charley

 

Charley, would it be possible for you to post a pic of the switch you have? I'm doing a search for one and it might help to know which one you have.

[dgman]

49 minutes ago, OCtoolguy said:

Charley, would it be possible for you to post a pic of the switch you have? I'm doing a search for one and it might help to know which one you have.

You can find these devices at any woodworking store or online store such as Rockler and Woodcraft. I have one I bought at Woodcraft.

[Jim Finn]

I do inlay with my scroll saw and sit at my saw for hours at a time every day.  I tried using   shop vac for dust removal  running all te time, and it worked well but I killed three shop vacs doing that.  Two used and one new.  Killed them all.  Seems they are not designed to run for hours at a time.

 

[Frank Pellow]

15 minutes ago, Jim Finn said:

I do inlay with my scroll saw and sit at my saw for hours at a time every day.  I tried using   shop vac for dust removal  running all te time, and it worked well but I killed three shop vacs doing that.  Two used and one new.  Killed them all.  Seems they are not designed to run for hours at a time.

 

Again, I recommend a Festool.  They are designed to run for many hours at a time.  But, of course, such a good design costs a lot.

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, dgman said:

You can find these devices at any woodworking store or online store such as Rockler and Woodcraft. I have one I bought at Woodcraft.

Yes, I've seen many of them but I get a kick out of finding stuff that's no longer marketed.

[kmmcrafts]

Never heard of the power control module.. Is there a different name to them? I search google for craftsman power control module and a lawn mower part come up, LOL I'd be interested in getting one.. but have no idea what to search for or even what it is.

[NC Scroller]

8 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Never heard of the power control module.. Is there a different name to them? I search google for craftsman power control module and a lawn mower part come up, LOL I'd be interested in getting one.. but have no idea what to search for or even what it is.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/ivac-automated-shop-vacuum-switch

https://www.amazon.com/iVAC-10031-010-Automated-Vacuum-Switch/dp/B0035YGLZG/ref=asc_df_B0035YGLZG?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80814156492390&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=t&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413735858809&psc=1

Edited February 28, 2022 by NC Scroller

[TAIrving]

Interesting and informative discussion.  FWIW, my first vacuum cleaner was completely dead, no funny noises, no slowing down, or such.  Suddenly one day, it quit.  

I think Charley and Scott might have diagnosed what happened and have the answer.  The problem is that I can get perfectly good used Oreck vacuum cleaners of the type I am using off eBay for around $25 and it is cheaper to just replace the vacuum cleaner as needed.  That leaves more $ for other scrolling toys/tools, wood, patterns, etc.  

[CharleyL]

Here is a link with a photo of what I have, but I know nothing about this company. I'm posting this only because of the photo and the description.

https://kk.org/cooltools/craftsman-auto/

 

Charley

 

[OCtoolguy]

7 minutes ago, CharleyL said:

Here is a link with a photo of what I have, but I know nothing about this company. I'm posting this only because of the photo and the description.

https://kk.org/cooltools/craftsman-auto/

 

Charley

 

Thanks Charley, I found the exact same switch on Amazon under a different name and it's black instead of gray. But, it's now $50 instead of $20. Times have changed.

 

[CharleyL]

14 hours ago, OCtoolguy said:

Thanks Charley, I found the exact same switch on Amazon under a different name and it's black instead of gray. But, it's now $50 instead of $20. Times have changed.

 

I bought mine over 40 years ago. Not surprising that it's more expensive now.

I just did a search on Amazon -

amazon.com/s?k=Woodworking+vacuum+control+module&crid=3QK9RAE4ALJO1&sprefix=woodworking+vacuum+control+module%2Caps%2C76&ref=nb_sb_noss

 

also -

.amazon.com/iVAC-10031-010-Automated-Vacuum-Switch/dp/B0035YGLZG

The one by Ortis is the other brand that I had seen. So, several models to choose from, even some smaller ones that cost less. The only one that I have any experience with is my old Craftsman switch.

Charley

 

[OCtoolguy]

3 hours ago, CharleyL said:

I bought mine over 40 years ago. Not surprising that it's more expensive now.

I just did a search on Amazon -

amazon.com/s?k=Woodworking+vacuum+control+module&crid=3QK9RAE4ALJO1&sprefix=woodworking+vacuum+control+module%2Caps%2C76&ref=nb_sb_noss

 

also -

.amazon.com/iVAC-10031-010-Automated-Vacuum-Switch/dp/B0035YGLZG

The one by Ortis is the other brand that I had seen. So, several models to choose from, even some smaller ones that cost less. The only one that I have any experience with is my old Craftsman switch.

Charley

 

Thanks Charley but neither of those links are clickable. 

[CharleyL]

Google Search "Craftsman Auto Switch".

 

Amazon or Google Search "IVac Vacuum Switch".

 

Charley

[rash_powder]

My current DIY dust collector runs off of a whole-home central vac motor.  Its connected to a treadmill controller so its variable speed DC rather than single speed AC.  Aside from its a bit loud as its a universal type motor, but it works great.  My next will be based on a DIY impeller and washing machine motor - hopefully I can salvage a 3 speed; this will be MUCH quieter.  

Look up some of Matthias Wandel's youtube vids.  He has made many DIY dust collectors.  They take a bit of work but can be customized to the exact application.  

 

[CharleyL]

I use a re-purposed whole house vacuum cleaner, installed with inlets in several places in my shop, upstairs in the shop attic, and one to the outside next to the passage door, for vacuuming my cars and trucks. Between the piping and the vacuum is a Dust Deputy with a repurposed 25 gallon grease barrel below it. I use it for all of my fine sawdust producers, the sanders, scroll saws, drill presses, etc. and for vacuuming much of the floor. My shop is too small for a real shop dust collector, so the chip producers and table saw get shoveled out with a small shovel frequently. I'm more concerned with the fine dust getting into my lungs anyway. The vacuum is located upstairs and the exhaust from the central vac exits just below the roof soffit, so the dust collected never gets back in my shop if it should somehow get through the Dust Deputy and vacuum. Since adding the Dust Deputy, there is nothing but a trace of micro fine dust inside the vacuum. It's all in the 25 gallon drum. Since I'm not in the shop every day, I can go about a year before needing to dump the barrel. I do my planning with a DeWalt 735, outside in the driveway, using the original hose and barrel cover that was once available for the 735, and I found a 60 gallon plastic barrel with an open end that I collect the chips in. It resides upside down behind my shop when not being used.

Charley

 

 

[Joe W.]

For those who want to use a home vacuum cleaner for scroll saw dust collection and are the frugal type, stop in at a Goodwill Store.

Not too long ago my audio system developed a loud feedback hum which I traced to my old 5 disc CD player.
The current prices for a new one gave me pause, and while out one day running errands I noticed our local Goodwill store.  
Why not, I thought.. . .
Long story short, I found another 5 disc CD player for $5.  And it works as good as the one I had before it developed the feedback hum.

While there, I did see several vacuum cleaners there as well.  
For those frugal souls like me who want to experiment with home vacs for controlling the sawdust, that's a frugal place to pick one up.

[Gene Howe]

Steve Good just did a review on the latest iteration of the "Scrollnado" dust collection system. He discussed a little vacuum that work really well with that system. Sorry. I don't remember the brand name. But a YouTube search would find the review.

[rash_powder]

The motor in the MetroVac and in whole home vacs are brushed motors; that is they have small carbon blocks that ride a commutator to switch the magnetic field and make the motor spin.  Turning a motor on and off often doesn't really hurt the motor itself as its just a lot of wire wound in loops.  However, those brushes... If the commutator isn't perfect smooth or their springs are weak they will bounce a bit and they will arc causing accelerated wear.  The inrush current at startup could cause additional wear too.  Fortunately they are replaceable and not very expensive.