Lacquer

[Wichman]

So as not to hijack another post, I'm starting a new one.

Recently I did a deep dive into what is actually in "lacquer, I was looking at the various brands at the Ace Hardware website (I had to go into the MSDS to find the stuff) and here is what I found.

In the current world of finishing, Lacquer is a catchall for a hard surface coating that may or may not contain; shellac, polyurethane, nitrocellulose acrylic, enamel, epoxy, and/or other ingredients and/or may require sanding between coats. 

If you are looking for a new finish coating you may need to explore different brands to see if a particular one works for you.

I am still trying to find a way to give a gloss coating for the "name and a rose" items that I am making. Polyurethane needs to be sanded in between coat and there's just no way to do that (maybe, I'm going to try an "air eraser"  from HF, I'll post after I've tried it) in a timely manner.

Also all the non spray coatings now have instructions that state "do not thin", I believe this has more to do with VOC rules than actual use. 

I am asking that if you post about a particular finish that works for you, add the brand name and if you are thinning a product, what you are thinning it with. Thanks.

[John B]

All most all finishes require sanding between coats to achieve a good smooth or gloss finish. It is not only to give tooth to the following layer, but also to remove any blemishes etc in the lower layer.
As to my understanding, Lacquer requires thinners to thin and clean, not metho or turps or water.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by John B

[WayneMahler]

@John B is right about sanding between coats. I am working on a commission piece and chose shellac as the finish. I have put about 4 coats on now and sanded between each. What I did though was started at 400 for the first 2 coats which leveled the surface. Then switched to 600 for the next 2 coats. The finish comes out glossy with out looking like plastic. Although shellac alone offers very little long term protection but adding a coat of paste wax and final buffing helps protect it a little more. Currently I am using Zinsser spray shellac and dries pretty quick between sanding and coats.

[BadBob]

If you want to learn about finishing, look for books by Bob Flexner and Michael Dresdner.

[edward]

I also use Zinsser been using it for years.

[Wichman]

1 hour ago, BadBob said:

If you want to learn about finishing, look for books by Bob Flexner and Michael Dresdner.

Thanks for the recommendation, the local library has a title for Flexner, I'll pick it up tomorrow. It's probably about furniture but it will help (I need information about deep, 1/2" +, fretwork).

[Jim McDonald]

I use a lot of Watco spray lacquer. Come in about 4 sheens and depending on the surface, will build a surface quickly. (First coat is ALWAYS sacrifical)

[OCtoolguy]

I've only used lacquer once on a special project and was advised that Deft was the best in aerosol. I used the semi-gloss and was very happy with it. A top coat, quick sanding with 400 and a second coat. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by OCtoolguy

[Millwab]

I seem to remember hearing that when you apply following coats of lacquer they "melt" into the previous layers obviating the need to sand between coats. Is this wrong?

[Wichman]

47 minutes ago, Millwab said:

I seem to remember hearing that when you apply following coats of lacquer they "melt" into the previous layers obviating the need to sand between coats. Is this wrong?

That's only true for shellac, most of the others require a mechanical bond, i.e. sanding between coats.

[dgman]

1 hour ago, Millwab said:

I seem to remember hearing that when you apply following coats of lacquer they "melt" into the previous layers obviating the need to sand between coats. Is this wrong?

 

40 minutes ago, Wichman said:

That's only true for shellac, most of the others require a mechanical bond, i.e. sanding between coats.

Yes it is true for Lacquer. I never sand between coats of lacquer. If there are any dust nibs after the second coat dries, I polish them off with a folded piece of brown paper bag. It’s like 1500 grit sand paper but leaves no scratches. Otherwise, you do not have to sand between coats or after. I have been using this method for over twenty years.

[Ctutor]

I have been using Deft lacquer for years Ace has it.  Sometimes I start with  sanding sealer (one coat) if the wood needs a sealer in which case you do need to sand then top coat.  You do not need to sand between the finish coats since the new coat does "burn" into the previous coat.  I let it cure for a few days and then sand the last coat if needed.  I sometimes buff the last coat after curing..  I use the "critter" spray  unit at about 40 PSI to spray.  The beauty of the Critter is that it uses mason jars and I keep one with Acetone to spray through the Critter to clean up. The Deft semi gloss does have a slight yellow tint the clear is almost crystal

[John B]

2 hours ago, dgman said:

 

Yes it is true for Lacquer. I never sand between coats of lacquer. If there are any dust nibs after the second coat dries, I polish them off with a folded piece of brown paper bag. It’s like 1500 grit sand paper but leaves no scratches. Otherwise, you do not have to sand between coats or after. I have been using this method for over twenty years.

You are correct Dan,
Lacquer thinners will dissolve Lacquer, so theoretically you do not have to sand for the next coat to adhere, in the same way that Metho will dissolve shellac. However Water will not reconstitute water based finishes and the solvent used in oil type polyurethanes will not dissolve them.

 

[Ctutor]

My comments above refer to the "cellulose" type lacquer.  In this day and age you must read the label.  Water based finishes have their own rules.  They do not "burn" the previous coat and so need different techniques. Some of the "new" finishes raise the wood grain more than others.  Those that do require sanding. Nuts oh for the good old days.

[Wichman]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:53 AM, BadBob said:

If you want to learn about finishing, look for books by Bob Flexner and Michael Dresdner.

I went to the library on Monday and spent some time looking through Mr Fexners book. There is a wealth of knowledge in there but it is tailored towards furniture, mostly large flat panels. And that's not what we do here. Rats.

 

[Wichman]

The "air eraser " I got at HF won't knock off the fuzzies, but it will abrade the surface lightly, so I can "sand" inside the holes of the fretwork.

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-eraseretching-kit-69277.html?_br_psugg_q=air+eraser

similar items are available through other retailers, such as Amazon

 

[BadBob]

3 hours ago, Wichman said:

I went to the library on Monday and spent some time looking through Mr Fexners book. There is a wealth of knowledge in there but it is tailored towards furniture, mostly large flat panels. And that's not what we do here. Rats.

 

What there is to learn in these books is about the finishes themselves. Finishing wood is finishing wood. The techniques may differ between a tabletop, a carved leg, and a fretwork shelf; however, you are still finishing wood.

I just finished two fretwork shelves with satin polyurethane. I used a brush and brushed it on straight from the can.

We do lots of different things here.

Edited May 24, 2022 by BadBob

[kmmcrafts]

Not being familiar with many finishes made for wood as I don't do a lot of "top coating" on wood.. That being said your statement saying you need a "gloss" finish and to be able to add a few coats. My experience with auto finishes and what I think you're trying to achieve I suppose if it were me I'd go with a urethane automotive clearcoat, LOL.. I know several furniture makers in my area that use the auto paints for their clear.. 

Spraying auto paints is different because you don't let the paint completely dry between coats.. you let the paint get tacky / sticky and then apply the next coat. I personally use this method for wood finishing too.. may not be the correct way to add coats of paint but it has worked well for me. I think the biggest reason they say to sand between coats is for those that spray a light coat and then let it dry.. If a car gets too dry while painting it yes.. we then also have to sand it. The idea is to get as much paint thickness on the item without getting runs / sagging paint. waiting to get that perfect tacky / sticky time for the next coat allows the solvent to sort of "melt" into the previous coat and bond well. 

Now, that all said.. doing this on wood with water base paints doesn't work out so well because the water makes the grain lift.. however.. you can sprits water on your project to get the grain to lift and do a final sanding and this will take care of maybe 95% of your grain raising issue.. sometimes it's 100% but every piece of wood is different so if you absolutely cannot sand then I'd go with a oil based or automotive solvent type paint.

Lacquer base paints are really about the easiest and most forgiving paints out there in both wood finishes and automotive finishes.. but the potent solvents in these paints are not forgiving if you ever try to top coat with another type of paint.. even after several years on a car and you spray a enamel over it.. It'll curdle / bubble/ lift the paint and cause all kinds of trouble, LOL..    

[Gene Howe]

I like Flexner's quote on finishes. Not verbatim...just how I remember it. "Half of what you hear about finishes is good info. And,the other half is B.S. The trick is knowing which half to believe."

[Joe W.]

On 12/29/2022 at 7:52 AM, Gene Howe said:

I like Flexner's quote on finishes. Not verbatim...just how I remember it. "Half of what you hear about finishes is good info. And,the other half is B.S. The trick is knowing which half to believe."

He is a good source of finishing information.  My local library has his books and a DVD.  
Which is good for me - memory is becoming more of a fleeting thing for me