Copyright issues

[Wichman]

This is a start of a new thread so as to not high jack a different thread.

This is not an attempt to "call out" any artist or publisher or demonize any one designer over another. Any mention by name is only to attempt to add clarity to the discussion.

 

 

Two of the Patrick Spielman books that I own, "Artistic Scroll Saw Patterns and Projects" and "Scroll Saw Picture Frames" specifically state "no commercial use".  Most of the others only state "all rights reserved". Sue May's website states " only ten items per pattern" and after twenty items a commercial license needs to be purchased.  And I'm fine with that.  What I am not fine with, is going to a seller ( Amazon ) and not being able to find a copyright notice; so I'm buying a product "blind" and do not know what the copyright is until I get it.

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Wichman said:

This is a start of a new thread so as to not high jack a different thread.

This is not an attempt to "call out" any artist or publisher or demonize any one designer over another. Any mention by name is only to attempt to add clarity to the discussion.

 

 

Two of the Patrick Spielman books that I own, "Artistic Scroll Saw Patterns and Projects" and "Scroll Saw Picture Frames" specifically state "no commercial use".  Most of the others only state "all rights reserved". Sue May's website states " only ten items per pattern" and after twenty items a commercial license needs to be purchased.  And I'm fine with that.  What I am not fine with, is going to a seller ( Amazon ) and not being able to find a copyright notice; so I'm buying a product "blind" and do not know what the copyright is until I get it.

You can always reach out to the seller of Amazon and ask.. While I think that is wrong for them to not have this in the description you could mention that to them as it is important for your customer to know what they are getting.. There are a lot of sellers that do not understand this and overlook it thinking you should know, or whatever.. just oversite maybe.. but if you have concern ask.. 

Edit: maybe off topic but I find a lot of eBay and Amazon design sellers actually selling designs that are not their own... It's crazy how people just think they can use and do whatever they want on the internet.. If it's online they feel it's public domain..

Edited August 23, 2022 by kmmcrafts

[Tom-in-Ashland]

Thanks for this reminder. I almost made a mistake trying to help my daughter get a small business going. 

[meflick]

6 hours ago, Wichman said:

This is a start of a new thread so as to not high jack a different thread.

This is not an attempt to "call out" any artist or publisher or demonize any one designer over another. Any mention by name is only to attempt to add clarity to the discussion.

 

 

Two of the Patrick Spielman books that I own, "Artistic Scroll Saw Patterns and Projects" and "Scroll Saw Picture Frames" specifically state "no commercial use".  Most of the others only state "all rights reserved". Sue May's website states " only ten items per pattern" and after twenty items a commercial license needs to be purchased.  And I'm fine with that.  What I am not fine with, is going to a seller ( Amazon ) and not being able to find a copyright notice; so I'm buying a product "blind" and do not know what the copyright is until I get it.

Are you talking about buying an actual individual pattern off of Amazon or, are you talking about buying a book with patterns off of Amazon and not knowing what it says is “permitted” without buying the book? If it’s a book, which I believe maybe what you are meaning based on seeing your comment in another thread, you could reach out to the publisher and ask for info. possibly or, ask here if anyone has the book and could let you know. Clearly, not ideal, but options.
 

Most of the books with woodworking patterns are published by Fox Chapel so I would suspect that they all have pretty much the same copyright usage. I have 3 different Fox Chapel books sitting here next to me right now. One is from 2008, one from 2011, and one is from 2021, all 3 say pretty much the same thing, “patterns are copyrighted to the author. Readers may make copies for their personal use.” One specifically says “Readers may make 3 copies for personal use.”  It’s the 2008 book. So the real question is what is deemed to be “personal use? Only you can can copy and use the pattern, or you can only use the pattern to create the item for “personal use”. I think it’s intentionally vague on that.

Now, the big part of the statement for all 3 is that “the patterns themselves are not to be duplicated for resale or distribution under any circumstances.”  I believe that is the main concern, that copies of patterns are not sold or redistributed any any way, because after all, it’s the patterns themselves that most of us buy the book for. However, with the statement that they are for “personal use,” it would seem that you could not use the pattern to make and sale even one item from any of those 3 books. It really depends on how one defines “personal use .” If very narrowly, then it would be to make and give away but not sell the finished product.  A very broad interpretation would be I can use the pattern to personally make them, then I can do what I want with them. it would also need to inquire on what the “law” it’s self actually says on what I can do with items I make from a pattern I buy. 

I have lots of Fox Chapel books besides these 3, but it’s late so I’ll wait to check some more tomorrow to see if I find any different statements but I suspect they are all pretty much the same given the timeframe these 3 cover and they are essentially the same. I will also check some of my SSWC magazines (also published by Fox Chapel) and see what they say. I’m pretty sure that the magazine pullout pattern insert say I can make up to 10 copies for my personal use. Again, it’s what is deemed to be “personal use” that would control. 

[Wichman]

4 hours ago, meflick said:

Are you talking about buying an actual individual pattern off of Amazon or, are you talking about buying a book with patterns off of Amazon and not knowing what it says is “permitted” without buying the book? If it’s a book, which I believe maybe what you are meaning based on seeing your comment in another thread, you could reach out to the publisher and ask for info. possibly or, ask here if anyone has the book and could let you know. Clearly, not ideal, but options.
 

 

I am referring to books of patterns.

     Denny posted about a specific book and I asked if he would check the copyright for me. don in brooklin on commented about the authors website, which does not have the book for sale. That's why I started a new thread about copyright issues, I didn't want to be a big distraction from Denny's excellent work.

     The language in the books and on the patterns are clear as mud, and quite frustrating. I have over 20 books of patterns, separated into can use and can't use for commercial items.

     Right now the copyright issue is going crazy, a former White House photographer is being sued because he used his own photo on his own website.  Last thing I need is a "suit" to walk up to the craft booth and hand me a card saying I owe them money.

[John B]

The only way you are going to get a definitive answer is to ask a lawyer, if it worries you that much.

[john nelson]

SO WHO IS GOING  TO ENFORCE   IT ??????        I  have a few patterns out there and really do not care how scrollers use my patterns.  I am flattered they like them enough  to use them at all. .......even for profit.     JAN

[Wichman]

I know a guy, saw him just yesterday as a matter of fact, who's wife would take Harley Davidson merchandise ( bought at thrift stores ) and remake those items into new items. While at a big craft show ( Las Vegas ) they were approached by a "suit" who handed them a business card ( he was a lawyer for HD ) and told them to "cease and desist" .

There are those who troll sales venues looking for opportunities, if you know your product and where you stand with copyrights you can shortcut this nonsense.

OTOH Steve Good had a blog in the last week about people on Etsy repackaging his patterns and bundling them with other patterns and selling them without his knowledge or consent. And the art publishing business I used to work at would have to scour E-bay twice a year to get the knockoffs pulled off the site.

One more note; fonts, many fonts are copyrighted and cannot be used in a commercial setting without a license and if a pattern designer uses one of these fonts that does not negate the copyright. When I tried to find out how to get a commercial license from Dafont I got nowhere, just dead links. 20 years ago the art publishing business I worked for created a product that was; a matboard cut with letters for a sport i.e. football, the letters were designed to be very open in the center so that pictures could be placed behind ( think pictures from a senior years in football ) I used a font editor to create a unique font, to lend itself better for what we were doing and to avoid any copyright issues.  

[OCtoolguy]

8 hours ago, John B said:

The only way you are going to get a definitive answer is to ask a lawyer, if it worries you that much.

And even then you can't be sure. We all know you can't trust lawyers or used car salesmen.

[Joe W.]

One could always contact the publisher directly and ask for clarification.  50/50 chance you'd get a straight answer   

[OCtoolguy]

I've been reading this whole thread and came away totally confused. I regard every pattern that I have, whether a free one or a paid-for one" the exact same way. Once I have it, it's mine to use for whatever I want as long as I don't "re-sell" it. I make things from these patterns and if I sell my work and give credit to the pattern maker, I figure I've done my due diligence. If someone wants to sue me, good luck. I have nothing much.

 

[kmmcrafts]

You're not safe from infringing a copywrite just because someone makes and sells the patterns, something I always thought I was safe from so long as I used Sue Mey, or Sheila / Keith Landry or other well known designers patterns.. 

I've had seize letters and items taken down from Etsy and Amazon from items I've made from these designers.. Same with a few of the puzzle patterns that Iggy is selling on his website.. I mentioned to the designers about the particular items and they never took them off their sites so you still can buy make and sell said patterns from these designers and get yourself into legal actions so don't think for a second that because the designers sell these they are safe.. I just wanted to make that clear to anyone that doesn't know this.

I've had about 6 of these over the coarse of my 15 years of selling crafts online.. I have no issues with stopping selling something and never relist / sell a item that had been taken down.. I don't want to be sued but I also don't want to sit in a corner with my tail between my legs scared to make and sell things either.. The problem is.. there is so many copywrite / trademarked items out there that there is really hardly any way to keep track of some of them.. and people are going through the process to copywrite / trademark new items and sayings etc. every day so it's about impossible to keep up with it.. 

[barb.j.enders]

On 8/23/2022 at 2:02 PM, Wichman said:

Sue May's website states " only ten items per pattern" and after twenty items a commercial license needs to be purchased

I am almost afraid to jump into the discussion, but regarding this line, and as John Nelson commented, who counts/enforces.

[Wichman]

35 minutes ago, barb.j.enders said:

I am almost afraid to jump into the discussion, but regarding this line, and as John Nelson commented, who counts/enforces.

It's the honor system for most of us, and to be honest it's not about "us", it's about the people who think that they can get a laser, throw in a piece of plywood and walk away for a while.

[NC Scroller]

Locks keep honest people honest.  The others will do what they do.

[FrankEV]

In just my humble opinion, reference to copyright only applies to the pattern itself and can not be applied to the product produced from them.  

I believe most patterns, stencils, images etc. found on-line, although they may state "copyright protected" are not unless associated with major corporations or actual book publishers. Just too costly for most creaters to bother with.   

Those who sell other peoples work are really the ones who are in the wrong, Steve Good's recent email, being a good example of this problem.  Therefore, I can appreciate that a pattern I purchase should not be redistributed and sold for profit.  However, once I purchase a copy it is mine to share, give away or transfer ownership.  If the seller states "only purchasing a license for use" he/she is being nieve, and again, such a statement sounds good but is uninforcable.    

I also am of the opinion that particular patterns, produced by certain makers that state on their Website (or even on the pattern intself), that  the pattern can not be used to produce commercial products, must be smoking something. It sounds very powerful but, I  believe, a totally uninforcable statement.  That is kind of like an Art paint manufacturer saying you can buy their paint but cannot sell a painting done with their paint.  Too dumb for words.

Also, patterns are simply suggestions fo making a resulting image, not unlike a coloring book or paint by numbers kit.   Even the smallest deviation from the pattern, makes it unique and no longer what was sugggested. AND WE ALL DEVIATE, DON'T WE? 

If you don't mess with highly recognizable LOGO's or products by major organizations, like a Harley Davidson, copyright infringement being detected/determined and/or even verified, in any of our scroll saw work and/or our product sales is highly unlikely. 

I know a there are those wno will not agree with me regarding all or parts of the above, but as I stated, they are only my opinions and how I chose to operate.      

 

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

28 minutes ago, FrankEV said:

Also, patterns are simply suggestions fo making a resulting image, not unlike a coloring book or paint by numbers kit.   Even the smallest deviation from the pattern, makes it unique and no longer what was sugggested. AND WE ALL DEVIATE, DON'T WE? 

 

 

 

I get what you mean here but on the other hand you could just copy every pattern makers work and add or remove a bridge etc. and call it your own.. I believe that I had read somewhere that a design had to be changed up a sort of certain percentage to not be infringing.. Kinda makes me think.. I could just change the the formula slightly for a penetrating oil and call it WD-45.. suppose they'd go after me?

This Archer puzzle was taken down from my Amazon store last fall I think it was.. It was deemed to be too similar to a sports team logo.. I'm not a sports person so I don't recall what team but I believe it was Kansas City Chiefs..  I personally did see " some similarities" as in the overall shape.. but we're talking about football vrs Archery and the puzzle clearly says Archer on it not anything to do with football or the said teams logo.. In fact.. I had a hard time finding the logo because it was the teams " old " logo from some years ago.. "I think"  This is the link to the said logo. https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/296041375490544653/  I probably could have disputed this and won against it.. BUT, is it worth the effort and time to do that for a product I sell only about 3 - 5 of per year, LOL.. My point is.. if you make and sell stuff and someone wants to they can go after you over most anything.. there seems to be some sort of a copywrite or trademark reference to most anything, especially if you see how similar the two things are.. to me they're not even close to the same thing for a copywrite / trademark.. but if it came to a lawsuit probably depend on who has the best legal defense, LOL

I do agree on all your other points and you wrote it quite well.. 

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Wichman said:

It's the honor system for most of us, and to be honest it's not about "us", it's about the people who think that they can get a laser, throw in a piece of plywood and walk away for a while.

Honestly shouldn't bother you if the laser / cnc guys are taking the patterns and running them on their machines.. Now... if you're the designer and "you" don't want laser / cnc machines making your designs then by all means enforce it somehow.. but good luck with that.. Kinda like Sue Meys stipulations of here patterns.. can only make and sell X amount before needing a commercial license... How would that be enforced? and proven that you sold only 1 or 1000? She is hoping for the honor system on this because does she have the time to search out peoples sales.. does she have the right to investigate ones sales to clarify? I don't know the answers to this but if shes worried about the money she could be loosing on the commercial license she'd probably be way farther ahead by just taking the investigation time / money.. to create something new and move on from it..

 

[Sycamore67]

I am sorry but I disagree with some of the thoughts being written.  A copyright protects the the creator from someone stealing his work.  The same goes for a patent.  What I read in this thread is that it is OK to to break the copyright laws because no one will check to find out.  Do we do the right thing or do we justify breaking the law because we can get away with it

 

I probably will receive some not so happy comments for this post and that is fine.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

I am sorry but I disagree with some of the thoughts being written.  A copyright protects the the creator from someone stealing his work.  The same goes for a patent.  What I read in this thread is that it is OK to to break the copyright laws because no one will check to find out.  Do we do the right thing or do we justify breaking the law because we can get away with it

 

I probably will receive some not so happy comments for this post and that is fine.

I do the right thing, or I should say I don't purposely do the wrong thing.. I had company show up as I was typing so in regards to my post, I never really finished up to say that it's not the right thing to do etc. so if you are referring to me I wasn't done, LOL Guess I should have waited to finish before posting.

I just don't understand how some designers can have certain regulations on their patterns and how they can go about proving it.. I get it with trademark items that you "copy something" but when you legally buy a pattern but are only to make 10 items how does that get proven..  ( again not saying it's okay to make more and hope to not get caught just don't understand it in the first place )It's a pretty grey area unless you obviously are at a show with 50 of them and caught red handed.. (also my understanding is that you have to be the holder of the copywrite to make a case).. otherwise it's a pretty hard proof. Unless I'm missing something. For the most part I think scroll sawers are pretty trust worthy because they know the meaning of "handmade" much better than someone that just buys a machine to make things for them while they watch over said machine.. I belong to many laser and cnc forums / groups.. and most of those guys seem to think everything is free.. and don't give a rats behind about the designer or a copywrite.. That is really why I brought these particular stipulations up.. without seeing their sales history how does it get proven.. I never once said anything about it being okay to do.. I just think the stipulations are kind of dumb to put in place.. though I'm not a designer and I don't carry copywrites or trademarks.. maybe something they have written that they know they cannot prove but to a certain minority of thief's at craft fairs with boatloads of inventory can give them some legal ground to stand if that were to happen.. possibly for those laser folks.. Those laser groups are terrible with loads of people arguing about this very type of thing and make the good guys have a bad name for it..   

[Sycamore67]

I do not care if it is difficult to enforce the copyright or not.  I do not care if different creators have different rules.  To me, it is not a grey area.  Breaking the copyright rules is illegal and more importantly just wrong.  Trying to justify breaking the copyright rules is just wrong.  

We owe it to the creators of the patterns to pay them and encourage them to create more.  Some are relying on the income such as Alex Fox.

There are too many people today trying to justify breaking the law because they think it is the law is in a grey area. If one does not like a law, then try to get it changed.

Personally, I have my name on a number of patents and involved in new technology.  I do not want people to steal the things I helped create.

[Jim McDonald]

A couple of things:

I have followed Steve Good for most of the time he has been publishing and through the years he has stated he doesn't care if people are using his patterns to make money. He does make a soft request for donations on his posts, but doesn't hammer it. (And I have made donations and purchased his custom Christmas patterns)

Second, back in the days when I was a working news photographer, I had a few of my images reprinted without permission. The maddening part is that in EVERY instance, I would have granted permission for a credit line and a tear sheet copy for my folio. (Long before internet, we actually kept photo books) 

So, I am a bit more careful about crossing the "fair use" line of copyright material.

I not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I truly have no right or wrong side on this.

[John B]

I'll be the devils advocate here.
How good an artist are most of the pattern makers? I ask this because, following some peoples logic 99% of all patterns are actually copy-writ to somebody else, not the pattern maker. Unless the pattern maker dreams up the pattern, puts it down on paper, or takes an original photograph, they can not be the owner of the copy-write.
Most find their pictures/ photos somewhere, then convert that said image into a pattern and I wonder how many have purchased or gained permission to do so?
According to some, only those who are 100% invested or have purchased rights can make patterns, so if this is the case, I would suggest everybody go and chuck your collection in the bin, because somewhere, some how we are all breaking the law.

Everybody has their own moral compass, live by yours.. I live with mine.
live and let live.
 

Edited August 26, 2022 by John B

[Sycamore67]

Just to clarify a bit, I found the following concerning US copyright laws.  

As of January 1, 1978, under U.S. copyright law, a work is automatically protected by copyright when it is created. Specifically, “A work is created when it is “fixed” in a copy or phonorecord for the first time.”

There does not seem to be an issue if you make something from a pattern in a book.  However, if you make something from a pattern and then sell it, you may have problems depending on what the creator allows.  It is like making a copy of a page in a book for your own use which is ok.  However, if you make a bunch of copies to sell, you are potentially violating the copyright.

I also did a search to try to understand the issue of altering a copyrighted image. Even if you do alter an image, it probably is still covered by copyright.  The idea that if you alter an image it is ok to use seems to be an internet myth.

Copyright laws vary depending on country.

Since I only make things for myself, all of this makes little difference.  However, if I made things to sell, then I would need to understand the law.

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

8 hours ago, John B said:

I'll be the devils advocate here.
How good an artist are most of the pattern makers? I ask this because, following some peoples logic 99% of all patterns are actually copy-writ to somebody else, not the pattern maker. Unless the pattern maker dreams up the pattern, puts it down on paper, or takes an original photograph, they can not be the owner of the copy-write.
Most find their pictures/ photos somewhere, then convert that said image into a pattern and I wonder how many have purchased or gained permission to do so?
According to some, only those who are 100% invested or have purchased rights can make patterns, so if this is the case, I would suggest everybody go and chuck your collection in the bin, because somewhere, some how we are all breaking the law.

Everybody has their own moral compass, live by yours.. I live with mine.
live and let live.
 

I couldn't have said that better... 

my understanding is any "original image" is copywritten automatically once you post it online.. I have over 3000 images online ( etsy, amazon listing photos  also just photos used around the internet). I have times where I find my images on other sites.. I have one image that is actually on a clipart site that someone stole from etsy and put on their clipart site. I've had in the past other etsy sellers stealing my entire listing word for word, images too and selling at a lower cost.. so when people say they don't like their stuff stolen "nether do I".. My point was how does one "really" go about patrolling / enforcing the law on this.. I don't have time to do that sort of thing so I just wonder how does one of the designers make sure no more than X amount to be made without a commercial license.. I think some thought I was trying to justify stealing.. maybe I took it that way as the written word is no expression. 

I used to cut portraits, had about 50 of them of famous people. didn't know selling them was infringing. Some "other scroller" alerted me I should take them down before I get into trouble so I did. They sat in my inventory for about 10 years until I decided it was time to burn them and I did just that.. Enjoyed making them and I enjoyed destroying them.. as I love me a nice campfire..