Copyright issues

[FrankEV]

18 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I get what you mean here but on the other hand you could just copy every pattern makers work and add or remove a bridge etc. and call it your own.. I believe that I had read somewhere that a design had to be changed up a sort of certain percentage to not be infringing.. Kinda makes me think.. I could just change the the formula slightly for a penetrating oil and call it WD-45.. suppose they'd go after me?

 

I was only refering to the product made from a pattern, and not the pattern itself.  I trully believe a pattern maker can not actually control what the user of a pattern does with a finish product made from such pattern.  Of course, there are limitations here, when any actual resulting image is copyrighted such as corporate logo's, emblems, etc.  Then it is not the work but the image itself that is protected.  I believe, just stating "you can buy my pattern but can't sell the product made from it" is simply nonsence.  Again only my opinion. 

[FrankEV]

17 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

I am sorry but I disagree with some of the thoughts being written.  A copyright protects the the creator from someone stealing his work. 

You are correct when you say " A copyright protects the the creator from someone stealing his work."   My opinion is simply that Copyright applys to the "pattern" (in these discussions) that are available for sale from the originator or his/her agent. Wnen such patterns are reproduced and redistributed for sale, the copyright law is most difinitively being broken.  I don't believe there is anyone participating in this discussion that actually feels otherwise.

However, unless the image itself is copyrited/trademarked, like corporate Logos and Emblems, the resulting product/image produced from a/any pattern is not, again in my opinion, subject to copy protection and the seller of the pattern cannot ligitamately stipulate what the product rpoduced from said pattern can be used for.   If myself and othes really believed this truly the extent of copyright protection, then most of us should just pull the plug on our saws as should embroiders, tatoo artist, any and all crafters and artist...... 

 I could go on and on, but there is no point.  I don't consider myself breaking any laws intentionally or even unintentionally.  I sell my work and not somebody elses even when I use somebody elses pattern. 

 

 

[new2woodwrk]

TLTR

I have over 200 copyrighted items in my repertoire having been a musician for over 40 years!

I also own a Trademark.

IMO First thing one needs to identify is are they dealing with a copyright or a trademark! They are 2 different things and protected and monitored differently.

Those that believe the original artwork is the copyright are correct. You can NOT take a photo from a photographer, make it a pattern and then enforce copyright on it (notice I say "enforce"). You will be able to "claim" copyright, but the photographer of the image will be the actual copyright owner if it were to go to court. We see this time and again with music, how changing or sampling a small piece is often a attempted copyright but is in fact an infringement on a copyright.

Patterns, unless they are hand drawn from the artists imagination and do NOT resemble an image from which they were "copied" are copyrighted if they choose to do so. Simply posting on the internet does not guarantee one a copyright.

Quote

What is copyright?

Copyright is a form of protection grounded in the U.S. Constitution and granted by law for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html

Tangible medium can NOT be changed such as the ability to change the date on a file that is posted to the internet.

IMO - It is not a question of "doing the honest" thing - that IMO is a bunch of hog wash. I'm going to assume "doing the honest thing" means one has never sped, ran a yellow light, jay walked, withheld funds from Taxes and any number of other "illegal" tasks etc. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I'm guilty, I admit it. I am NOT perfect.

Often times you will see "artists" SAY something is copyrighted, when in actuality it is not because they have not gone through the actual process of copyrighting an item. They may believe as many, that by simply "posting" an item it is automatically copyrighted. Similar to how musicians will mail themselves a recording of their works and say "It's copyrighted" because it has a postmark. That has yet to hold up in court! It is a great way to protect yourself in the short run, but not if you intend to make money from your works.

Copyrights are seldom enforced, and often with a good lawyer (if you can afford it) do not end in any penalty - take a well known photo company that purports to own EVERY photo on the internet! I've gotten cease and desists from them for years - they are full of hot air! Once my attorney sends them a request for proof of copyright and a cease and desist, they're done bothering me!

Does any of this mean selling a product created from another product which is supposedly copyrighted guarantee a lawsuit? Nope, if you choose to ignore a copyright, you roll the dice - if you have the means to fight it, more power to you!

Now Trademark, WOW that is quite another thing and is heavily monitored.

Quote

A trademark can be any word, phrase, symbol, design, or a combination of these things that identifies your goods or services. It’s how customers recognize you in the marketplace and distinguish you from your competitors. https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks

HOWEVER, where it is monitored and by whom is interesting to note: Often times you will hear of cease and desists being forwarded when a trademarked item is used for commercial purposes in PUBLIC! By public I mean: the internet, on a website 3rd party or other (google can search photo's which is how many are found today), at a highly visible event (any sports game or sporting event etc.) or in many cases at small farmers markets/flea markets.

Often the markets are not monitored directly, but rely on "whistle blowers". Once that occurs "release the Kraken" happens and often times will result in confiscation.

Does any of this mean selling a product created from another product which is Trademarked guarantee a lawsuit? Nope, if you choose to ignore a Trademark, you roll the dice!

Edited August 26, 2022 by new2woodwrk

[Travis]

Sorry for the long post. 

There is a couple of things going on here:

Can the pattern designer dictate usage rights?

The OP's wished there was some sort of explanation of usage rights.  I think that's a reasonable request.  I wouldn't expect it to be on an Amazon listing, but it should be in a pattern book for sure.  Etsy listings, or direct pattern sales, should have EULA (End User License Agreement) with their patterns.  Listing it would be nice, but if it's not there, you should be able to ask and easily get an answer.

I was thinking Fox Chapel had a thread on their website about what you can and can't do with their patterns in their books.  

But can a pattern designer dictate usage rights?  Sure they can.  If they are the copyright holder, they have the ability to control how they want their work being used.  You see this with music every political season.  A group uses a piece of music the artist doesn't want to be associated with.  They have the right to say no.

If a pattern designer says that it's for personal use only, it means you can make it for yourself or as a gift.  But not with the intention to sell.  Others allow you to sell the finished product (not the pattern itself), but they may limit how many you can do.  This is mostly protection in case something becomes a runaway hit, or if something starts becoming manufactured, they have some sort of recourse.  I think some of our big pattern designers had this happen to them.  If their design hits that cord with the public, they want to benefit too.  Why should they only make $10 on a pattern while the manufacturer is making a boatload of money?  Look at the man and dog scroll saw pattern.  I think I saw that floating around as a hand drawn pattern on some communities a long while back.  It became super popular in the scrolling community.  It got published in a magazine, and eventually turned into a book deal!  That's amazing!  Congratulations!  They deserve that success.

The idea of turning a pattern into a finished product by changing the medium will bypass the copyright is not true.  Nor does altering the pattern.  This is called derivative work and does not void the original copyright.  It has to be a significant change where you cannot confuse the original with the new work.  Many years ago, there was a very high profile pattern designer that got into trouble because he used copywritten photos to make his patterns.  Fox Chapel I think also got into trouble for publishing them in their magazine.  I'm not sure the end result of the lawsuit, I'm sure it was settled.  But it was a pretty big deal at the time and shook up the scrolling community.

I got an email a few weeks back asking if they can use one of my patterns for commercial use.  First we had to find out what they meant by commercial.  Is it being manufactured, or are they a crafter?  Turns out they were a crafter.  I basically said, you can't distribute the pattern, but you can make up to 1000 finished products to sell online, craft shows, etc.   Because, honestly, if you're a crafter making over 1000 pieces of any one design, you're a manufacture now and we should come to a different agreement.  The Custom Ornament Business Kit I make every year explains what you can and cannot do with the kit.  It's intended for crafters.  I expect that people want to make money from it.  That's good (and honestly encouraged).  But I don't want them to sell or give away my ornament business kit (that's how I keep the lights on at SSV)....just the stuff they make with it.

 

Who monitors this and can it be enforced?

The fact is, there is a copyright with terms of usage.  If you don't own that copyright and go against usage terms, it can be enforced.  Most of the time, it's just a cease and desist letter.  Will you get caught?  Hard to say.  If you're online, you're very exposed.  If you're at a craft show, depends on the craft show and the crowd it brings (if you have a booth at a Harley event without a license, I can almost guarantee you'll be shut down)  Can they go further?  Sure, but it's expensive and usually the letter is enough to put an end to it.  If you really want to go up against it, you'll probably lose.

Who monitors?  Sometimes the artist.  I've reported several people on ebay that were selling my patterns.  I've had times where people scrape SSV and Google Images to bundle and sell our patterns.  That's why the Pattern Library is now for members only.  Sometimes it's friends of the original pattern designer.  SSV had some patterns from a person who we thought was the original designer.  A friend of the real designer pointed that out to me, and after some research and investigation, we found out they were stolen and removed them.

There are companies that specifically go out to look for certain types of work.  They basically work on behalf of companies, looking for infringements.  They make their money by getting a percentage of settlements.  A friend of mine ran a website where he was filed against several times.  (His website was legit, though.  It was a forum where people showed off homemade cornhole boards for personal use, often with sports team logos.)  Likeness of celebrities can also fall under this.  You always hear of a daycare that has Disney murals on the walls and get shut down.  Harley people, like Wichman shared, got into trouble for repurposing their products.  Puzzle makers who take calendars and turn them into jigsaw puzzles.  The list goes on and on.

Can they prove it?  If you're in a craft show, they can look at your merchandise and tell.  As simple photo will take care of that.  If it's online, they have your listing and they can subpoena sales records.  Even if you only sold through social media, there's records.

 

A few closing thoughts:

• For patterns found on SSV, you'll have to ask the original pattern designer what you can do with them.  Please respect their wishes.  SSV doesn't own the copyrights to the patterns posted here.  When pattern designer uploads a pattern, the designer is giving permission for SSV to host the pattern for members to use.  If you want to make money with the design, you'll have to work that out with the original pattern designer.  SSV isn't involved in that negotiation.
• Each artist has their own definition of what is acceptable for themselves.  And that's OK.  I've had my patterns stolen in the past and it's super disheartening.  As a designer, it really makes you question why you do this and whether or not it's worth it.  We've lost many amazing designers over the years because of this.  We're all artists and craftspeople.  Some of us are designers, some are scrollers, some of do both.  Its a symbiotic relationship.  We want to watch out for and respect each other.  If we didn't have designers, us scrollers won't have anything to cut.  Without scrollers, designers won't have anybody to bring their ideas to life.
• SSV is very conscious about copyrights.  Please remember that I'm just a solo guy who runs SSV on the side for the scrolling community.  I try hard to make this a friendly place with a ton of great information and resources.  But we can't use SSV as a platform to share patterns that don't belong to us.  A single letter from a cranky lawyer could potentially shut down the whole website.  So I try to be diligent about protecting copyrighted works.   SSV is a big place and I can't see it all.  If you see something that doesn't belong, please flag it for review (the 3 dots under the upper right corner), and I will take a closer look.

Here's a couple of other posts that may be interesting:

Check out the copyright section in the Village University:

And another post about Copyrights:

 

[OCtoolguy]

If I make a picture frame, am I infringing on someone's patent, copyright or trademark? Unless I'm Adam, it appears that nothing is safe or original anymore. Even digging a hole in the ground to crawl into seems to be stepping on somebody's toes.

[Travis]

I don’t think anybody is suggesting that if you make a frame you’re violating some sort of intellectual property.
 

But what is being said, you can’t buy a pattern and think that you own the rights to do whatever you want with it. Your usage rights only fall within parameters of what the copyright holder allow.  Pattens are made for crafters, so it’s expected that it’s for personal use. Some designers are ok with you making money with them at a craft show or online sales…others are not.  But there are limitations on what you can do with their designs.

I like making videos. But I can’t use music from Dolly Parton in my video and post it to YouTube, even though I own the CD. My rights to that music only extends to personal listening.  But, boy, what if I REALLY want to use that music? Sure, Dolly’s people will work with me, but it will cost me a boat-load of money.  

But what if I don’t use her recording, and my band plays a cover of it instead?  Still her music…your performance, but still her music.  You need to license to use her music.

[BadBob]

I have a book of patterns that says you are not allowed to reproduce anything in the book for any reason and later tells you how to use a copy machine to reproduce the patterns.

 

[Sycamore67]

Travis had a great explanation and example.  You generally purchase a pattern for personal use.  You can make something for yourself.  Selling things made from the pattern violates the copyright unless the creator grants additional usage such as selling things made from the pattern.  

Will you be caught violating the copyright.... probably not unless it is something like a NFL logo or Disney character.

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, BadBob said:

I have a book of patterns that says you are not allowed to reproduce anything in the book for any reason and later tells you how to use a copy machine to reproduce the patterns.

 

So you bought a book just to "look" at the patterns and dream about actually making them, 

[BadBob]

20 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

So you bought a book just to "look" at the patterns and dream about actually making them, 

I bought it used on eBay. I had some extra space on a shelf that needed a book.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by BadBob
Add to comment.

[zimmerstutzen]

Copy right of some things is basically unenforceable.  A silhouette of a snowman, or shark for instance.  There a literally thousands of extremely similar silhouettes out there.  No matter if you do your own free hand, some body somewhere will think it looks just like the one from such and such a supplier.

 

A reasonable alternative, that I have been trying to follow is to copy or create my own patterns from old magazine artwork.  I mean old, as in the copyright ran out.  There are several archives containing such old magazines and they tell you right up front which are in public domain.,   I also have a file of my own old magazines and catalogs from the 1850's through 1940.  If the magazine folded and no longer exists, it is extremely unlikely that anyone will care that you used a drawing or photo from a 75 yr old defunct magazine.    Another source is old movies before 1940.

Current copyright, for items published 1978 and after, is life of the author plus 70 years..  For items before that, there is a host of ridiculous and technical time periods.  For instance, the movie, "It's A Wonderful Life," had the copyright expire back in the 1970's, but the copyright on the underlying story "The Greatest Gift" and the music lived on, so the movie itself was not protected, but the story and music still were. If you take an old picture from a 100 year old magazine and adapt your own pattern.  The picture you adapted from is not protected, but the pattern you adapt from it, it protected to you as a current derivative work.   Sort of bizarre.    The "Lion Sleeps tonight" song is a more twisted copyright matter.  It was adapted from a 175 yr old Zulu folk song.  In 1939, Solomon Linda recorded the song and added the wailing heard in the 1949 Weavers and 1963 Token's version of the song.  Disney used the song in the movie the Lion King.  and was sued by the heirs of Solomon Linda for using, not the song, but his version of the song.  Solomon Linda died in 1961, at which time the copyright he sold in 1939, reverted to his estate.  His heirs collected over 10 million from Disney.   So yes it is complicated.  Just make sure you use a very old picture that has passed into the public domain. 

[zimmerstutzen]

Here is one source:

https://centurypast.org/read-magazines-online/