Crafts Show Scroll Saw Items

[kmmcrafts]

Went to a crafts fair yesterday just as a spectator / shopper. There was a couple of booths that had scroll work. I didn't strike up any conversations with anyone and just walked around letting the wife shop and I observed, LOL. There was one vendor there that had all intarsia ( hope I spelled that right lol ). I never even looked at any of the prices of anything there.. Not to be degrading to the particular vendor but most of this type of work I've seen showed what I'd consider pieces of art high end quality.. This not so much.. I didn't walk into the booth either just the pieces out by the walkway wasn't super impressive to me.. but maybe better works was inside the booth.. 

Anyway to get to my on topic, there was lots of laser engraved / cut things.. nice presentable items / mostly was signs / plaques that had saying on them with good quality finishes etc.. lasered leather shops.. I felt there was quite a lot of that stuff that if it wasn't lasered it was circuit ( stickers ) onto wood and or metal.. I kinda feel these folks was not there because they loved doing the work but rather there to copy sayings and make signs for a profit. Nothing wrong with that but I just don't see a lot of original art type things.. several vendors selling the same sayings on different types of materials or different shaped signs but the same old sayings. 

Having lasers and CNC's myself and rarely use them for business or for making things by themselves but rather combining these machines with the scroll sawn works I do.. I have said it many times that these machines are not pumping out production work like most think they are and I stand by that statement. I also say that it's not just throwing a blank on the machines and pushing a button as most that don't know them seem to label them as. Myself.. I was actually most impressed with the lesser quality scroll sawn intarsia pieces than these very nice CNC / Laser works.. While it does take skills to run these machines actually a lot of skill and most of it I'm still learning to try to do even after owning them for 4-5 years now. I think the intarsia had good quality cuts but lacked in the shaping / finishing of the pieces that I seen.. I've seen CNC work that is the same way.. good quality engravings but poor finishing. 

I can see why many of those doing craft events with their puzzles can do well, I don't see portrait works doing great but not bad either.. so long as you have a theme that catches the right buyer.. problem with portraits is booth space and hanging the right one with limited space.. you can't display a hundred portraits as easy as you can display 100 puzzles.. 

One person there had laser cut Christmas ornaments and has them on a octagon shaped turning display.. nice ornaments but they was all dark colored, may have been plywood stained with walnut. the display was in a shaded area and IMO was hard to see. The turntable thing probably allows them to put a lot of different ones in a smaller space but also only displays half of them without spinning it around. 

Many of the booths had a mix of things.. ie one booth I walked by had a few portraits, word art wall hangings, and a few bowls / baskets.. very nice work but the stuff was mixed in with probably his wife's towels and things.. The whole mixed bag of things was not a very impressive look to me, again I go back to the intarsia person, everything in the booth was intarsia.. I liked that... I think the whole mixed bag of stuff just doesn't have a good professional flow to it, Not that that's a bad thing as a seller.. having a mix of stuff maybe guarantees that "something will sell" .. 

All that said, I think if I was to do a show I'd want to stick to one thing, either ornaments, clocks, or puzzles.. Ornaments being cheap and quick to make and stock up on might be the thing to make and sell during a holiday selling event.. but then what does one sell throughout the year at these events. I sell ornaments online all year long but not sure they'd do well in August at a live event. 

At the end of the day, that intarsia seller was the best booth and most impressive one there that wasn't the run of the mill same old stuff you always see.. I hope they did well and I realize they may have just started this venture and maybe they don't have fancy sanders and shapers etc.. and if that is the case I hope they made a lot of money so they can go buy the needed tools to improve their work to make better quality pieces.. we all start somewhere with nothing.. I did anyway.. I started with a free broken Delta scroll saw.. now I have several saws, CNC's, Lasers etc.. 

Makes me wonder though, with all the CNC, Lasers, Circuit machine works.. will scroll saw things make a better sales.. after all it is more unique and not really a mass produced thing that the markets aren't going to be flooded with. What I see more and more wanted in the selling online is that there is a wide open market for custom / personalized items.. People want that special ornament engraved with a name or year on it.. Most sellers don't want to fool with that as it takes a lot of extra time to do that.. That is where my laser and cnc help me get more business.. not actually making the product.. but improving what I've already made by being able to add personalization    

[Rolf]

Kevin, I really like your post!  We haven't gone to any craft fairs in a few years now. Due to a lack of quality vendors many have allowed the "schlock" vendors in. Poorly made Yard art  was the only wood based stuff that I have seen.  There was one turner at the last show and he did have some exceptional pieces. He is now a friend, and did very well at a local art fair. but not so well at a craft fair in the same village. 

The last time I saw any Intarsia it looked like it was covered in high gloss plastic. He finally confessed that it was made in Vietnam not by him. Lots of illegal Disney stuff. 

I use my small desktop Laser Engraver for putting on my logo and signing pieces.  I have also made a few Custom photo engraved ornaments for people that have lost their pets.  I don't and won't charge for them.

I have waffled on purchasing a CNC Router. I considered going into custom routed signs. I have done a few Freehand routed ones and that was fun.  I don't have much space left and I don't thing I want to expand my product line at this point. Instead will start to do more Intarsia pattern designs and also more wood turning instead. 

[Joe W.]

6 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Makes me wonder though, with all the CNC, Lasers, Circuit machine works.. will scroll saw things make a better sales.. after all it is more unique and not really a mass produced thing that the markets aren't going to be flooded with. What I see more and more wanted in the selling online is that there is a wide open market for custom / personalized items..

Hello Kevin,

Regards "will scroll saw things make a better sales".   Yes I think so.  Lots of factors involved there.  Location/type of event/etc.
And custom/personalized - if quality cutting/finishing is done - will make for continued sales as I believe satisfied customers will spread the word about you/your craft.
I've sold at the local Farmers' Market the last three weeks and it generated three custom order sales, in addition to what sold on the tables.   A couple signs but nothing I've seen at the department/craft stores.  My last sign was a personalized football one and I got a new experience using clay to fill in the letters with.  More work involved but customer is happy with it.    
 

[kmmcrafts]

I think signs would do well IF they're custom signs.. not the generic funny phrases type of signs.. but that said I also imagine that those signs are needed to be displayed at a show in order to get those custom ordered ones.. 

Scroll sawn work is unique and much of it is quite difficult to do on a CNC but a laser on the other hand for thin stock, ie ornaments and portrait stuff could easily be done on a laser cutter.. BUT stack cutting ornaments with a scroll saw is faster than cutting on the lower priced lasers.. many folks aren't spending $6000 +for a machine that's capable of production type cutting that would be needed to be able to keep up with me stack cutting. 

Seems like there is a lot of folks at these shows with laser and cnc work.. and that maybe the market is getting a bit saturated with sign makers etc. That maybe just the area I'm in. I feel like scroll work is more unique which makes me wonder if being a vendor at a event would rally up maybe more business than those laser and cnc vendors in part because there seems to be a lot of competition with the more saturated market. 

It takes skill in both cases but I feel like there are a lot of computer graphics people out there that can easily make the things I see that are laser and cnc'd  and not nearly as many skilled hands on makers.. All that being said.. there are a lot of consumers out there that really don't care "how it was made " they're buying the piece because they like it not for the fact that one is hands on and the other is computer run.. and many wouldn't know the difference anyway. 

 

[Dave Monk]

If you can create quality hand made unique wood products there will always be a market for them especially if you can reach the right market. 

[Dave Monk]

46 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I think signs would do well IF they're custom signs.. not the generic funny phrases type of signs.. but that said I also imagine that those signs are needed to be displayed at a show in order to get those custom ordered ones.. 

Scroll sawn work is unique and much of it is quite difficult to do on a CNC but a laser on the other hand for thin stock, ie ornaments and portrait stuff could easily be done on a laser cutter.. BUT stack cutting ornaments with a scroll saw is faster than cutting on the lower priced lasers.. many folks aren't spending $6000 +for a machine that's capable of production type cutting that would be needed to be able to keep up with me stack cutting. 

Seems like there is a lot of folks at these shows with laser and cnc work.. and that maybe the market is getting a bit saturated with sign makers etc. That maybe just the area I'm in. I feel like scroll work is more unique which makes me wonder if being a vendor at a event would rally up maybe more business than those laser and cnc vendors in part because there seems to be a lot of competition with the more saturated market. 

It takes skill in both cases but I feel like there are a lot of computer graphics people out there that can easily make the things I see that are laser and cnc'd  and not nearly as many skilled hands on makers.. All that being said.. there are a lot of consumers out there that really don't care "how it was made " they're buying the piece because they like it not for the fact that one is hands on and the other is computer run.. and many wouldn't know the difference anyway. 

 

I try to stay away from making things that can be easily done on a CNC and lasers.  The shows I have been to lately  there has been a lot of competition in wood/epoxy projects, especially cutting boards.  

[kmmcrafts]

31 minutes ago, Dave Monk said:

I try to stay away from making things that can be easily done on a CNC and lasers.  The shows I have been to lately  there has been a lot of competition in wood/epoxy projects, especially cutting boards.  

That stuff was popular around here for a couple years, lately I've been seeing this inlay stuff, mainly cutting boards but also coasters.. 

 

I've got to admit though, this is really neat.. Not really something I'd have in my kitchen decor even coming from a car enthusiast.. but it is a cool piece of art even if it was done on a cnc.. The process of setting up all those router bits and doing two different setups, I'm almost positive a good scroll sawer could cut this out and finish it faster than this whole cnc process took..   

[Dave Monk]

28 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

That stuff was popular around here for a couple years, lately I've been seeing this inlay stuff, mainly cutting boards but also coasters.. 

 

I've got to admit though, this is really neat.. Not really something I'd have in my kitchen decor even coming from a car enthusiast.. but it is a cool piece of art even if it was done on a cnc.. The process of setting up all those router bits and doing two different setups, I'm almost positive a good scroll sawer could cut this out and finish it faster than this whole cnc process took..   

That is very cool. It would be interesting to know exactly how long that would take from beginning to end including the designing. 

[John B]

I have considered a laser to brand my work, but am leery of it as it just gives the No Laser/CNC sign a slight untruth, unless I go with a complete disclaimer and explanation.
I have found that a variety of items brings about the best response, as people are varied and looking to purchase different things at different times. Unless you are a regular at specific events and have built up a reputation, not many people attend markets with a particular purchase in mind, it is a more "spur of the moment purchase". "Dad would love that, his birthday is coming up" etc.
I love cutting portraits, but they do not sell near as well as puzzles and toys, but, that being said. If I sell one, it makes up for about 5 or more puzzles. They are also visible from a distance and attract attention.
If people wish to sell laser. cnc work I have no problems with that, only when they label it as hand made. You only have to look at Etsy  to see the huge amount of sites that are listed as "Handmade" when Lasers are being used. This is paramount to me writing a piece of poetry in a beautiful font on my computer and calling it hand made compared to getting out a calligraphy pen and doing the same thing. No comparison and one Is definitely not hand made. If handmade wasn't a selling point these liars   would not be using it as a come on.
I agree that the number of true handmade stalls have declined and there seems to be a lot resellers of Chinese crap at markets
I also see what Kevin was seeing, poorly made items etc, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. Everybody has to start somewhere, or maybe they are blind

Edited September 11, 2022 by John B

[Rolf]

I really liked that video. It is an impressive bit of work. It should never see a knife. The design and tooling setup with all of the calculations is whole different level of calculations. To do that same project as a hand cut beveled inlay is not a project I would want to tackle. 

[kmmcrafts]

10 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

That is very cool. It would be interesting to know exactly how long that would take from beginning to end including the designing. 

Based on my very limited CNC experience there is probably at least 3 hours of machine run time, as he surfaced each type of wood with the surfacing bit and changed bits several times on the first ( walnut carve ).. each bit has to be recalibrated so the machines knows where the top surface of the board is all that takes a lot of time to set back up. That one bit is quite small so he's not running the machine speed super fast. You don't want to push them too hard and break a $50 - 100 bit, there are cheaper bits but like anything you get what you pay for.. buy a table saw blade from Harbor Freight a then a high end blade.. same deal with those bits and none of them are cheap. Plus breaking a bit you can't very easily stop the machine and back up, replace the bit and go.. it's quite a process.. most times easier to just start from the beginning. This particular cutting board isn't very detailed one.. there are some videos out there that have tons of fine details. Anyway I'd say there is probably at least 3 hours just in machining.. with all those set-up and changes. 

The graphics program I use and the machining program to set this carve up probably didn't take too long for the artwork.. Those programs are pretty powerful and do a lot of calculating for you. Mine has a inventory of bits programed into it and somewhat tells me what bit I need to run to achieve the desired result. I have a "Inlay" tab on my software so it calculates what all it needs and bit etc.. so he likely didn't have to program each piece he put on the machine.. the program likely did that and he just chose the wood types etc. 

I've never made a end grain cutting board but I'm sure cutting all the pieces and gluing that all up is some time.. I'm not sure about how the routing of the end grain goes if it's any different than face grain.. I've only messed with face grain. 

I could be way off on the times because even though I've had the CNC for 4 years I've limited experience and probably made less than 50 pieces on it.  

[kmmcrafts]

10 hours ago, John B said:

I have considered a laser to brand my work, but am leery of it as it just gives the No Laser/CNC sign a slight untruth, unless I go with a complete disclaimer and explanation.
I have found that a variety of items brings about the best response, as people are varied and looking to purchase different things at different times. Unless you are a regular at specific events and have built up a reputation, not many people attend markets with a particular purchase in mind, it is a more "spur of the moment purchase". "Dad would love that, his birthday is coming up" etc.
I love cutting portraits, but they do not sell near as well as puzzles and toys, but, that being said. If I sell one, it makes up for about 5 or more puzzles. They are also visible from a distance and attract attention.
If people wish to sell laser. cnc work I have no problems with that, only when they label it as hand made. You only have to look at Etsy  to see the huge amount of sites that are listed as "Handmade" when Lasers are being used. This is paramount to me writing a piece of poetry in a beautiful font on my computer and calling it hand made compared to getting out a calligraphy pen and doing the same thing. No comparison and one Is definitely not hand made. If handmade wasn't a selling point these liars   would not be using it as a come on.
I agree that the number of true handmade stalls have declined and there seems to be a lot resellers of Chinese crap at markets
I also see what Kevin was seeing, poorly made items etc, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. Everybody has to start somewhere, or maybe they are blind

There is a fair amount of hands on with CNC work but it's mostly sanding and finishing... so yeah I get what you're saying though it's not actually " hand made " I too get a little annoyed with the handmade claim.. Maybe they should be saying homemade or something.. I struggle with that myself with the pieces I have made.. what do I call it because i agree it's not really handmade.. but at the same time it's not a mass produced piece either.. many don't even know what a CNC is so saying CNC made just sounds off to me.. I also don't care for the term scroll saw made.. I think that is why they are claiming "handmade" because what label does one call it to indicate it's not a mass produced item? 

[Roberta Moreton]

When I do my monthly outdoor craft sale, I say my things are made by me with my hands and my scroll saw. Not lasers, not CNC. There are others there that sell their laser work.

[new2woodwrk]

Question:

I only a small Neje laser I use strictly for engraving. My question: As I understand, CNC and Laser cuts take far longer than scroll sawn items. Is this true? I know if I attempted to "cut" a puzzle with my small laser, it would take hours (probably a good 4-5 passes).

A few notes to the OP...

In my area, there are several "laser/cnc" vendors as well as an epoxy cutting board/charcuterie (SP?). They seem to do very well I guess, at least that's what they tell me. No one actually gives out numbers, just an "Yeah, had a good day today". Whatever that means!

There is one other scroller at my weekly event, and he does portrait work, a few of those abstract clocks from the magazine. We both agreed not to do any of each others cuts at the same event and so far that has worked out well for us both.

Hand made items do seem to sell better at our weekly events, although lately not so much. Yesterday, I  heard more than I ever have the word "budget" over and over - a sign of the times for sure. I won't get into that...

I agree, personalized items, of which we are the only ones at our weekly event that hand makes personalized items is a very big part of our business and I expect will continue to be so once they get us out of this recession and we start seeing lower prices all around.

In the mean time, we did start selling xmas items in August. It seems in our area, there is/was a significant move to try and get their shopping done while they can afford items before the prices are too far out of reach.

When asked about raising our prices, we explain we are making items slightly smaller to keep the price point the same. In fact, we show them the difference and no one can actually "see" the difference until we put the side by side! Bam - personalized item sold!

So yes, I agree hand made personalized items are still a preferred item, it's just that people have far less disposable income at the moment.

 

[kmmcrafts]

7 hours ago, new2woodwrk said:

Question:

I only a small Neje laser I use strictly for engraving. My question: As I understand, CNC and Laser cuts take far longer than scroll sawn items. Is this true? I know if I attempted to "cut" a puzzle with my small laser, it would take hours (probably a good 4-5 passes).

A few notes to the OP...

In my area, there are several "laser/cnc" vendors as well as an epoxy cutting board/charcuterie (SP?). They seem to do very well I guess, at least that's what they tell me. No one actually gives out numbers, just an "Yeah, had a good day today". Whatever that means!

 

 

To be 100% fair.. the K-40 laser I have cut's a ornament in 4-5 minutes.. It's probably actually slightly faster overall than me scroll sawing.. but I wouldn't say they're mass production machines like many make them out to be. This laser cost me $340 back in 2017.. now they're around $400 - 500 depending onsale or ? This is just a small 40 watt laser and the work area is only about 8 x 10 inch so I can't put a sheet of ply down and do mass production with it. Now, I say slightly faster But that's in a perfect scenario. The machine is water cooled and too cold of water or too warm ( basically has a sweet spot ) affects the cut as does material density. If there is a hard spot in the wood it may barely cut through. 

This video is my machine cutting and I'm running 10 milliamp power 15 milliamp is max power for tube life you really shouldn't run more than 12 milliamp. I'm running the laser head speed at 8mm per second. Note at the end it really didn't quite cut all the way through. Ideal for cutting you should have a minimum of a 60 watt machine to cut this 1/8" BBply.. and I'd say for production work you'd really be better of with a 80 - 100watt..now that's talking near $10,000 for the machine with a water chiller for the cooling system.. I just run a bucket of water and sometimes some soda pop bottles filled with water and frozen to help cool the water. 

This video is real time cutting.. took around 4 minutes.. I can stack cut 5 of these on my scroll saw in 15 minutes.. so as I said.. these don't mass produce without a pretty pricey large set up. 

As far as how well they do, In my mind they're way under pricing their work.. while the machine is doing the work it's still time and wear on the machine and router bits aren't cheap and they'll wear out like any other blade or bit does. Lasers also have wear. the mirror and lenses get worn out from the heat and the laser tubes are only good for so many hours. Plus as you use them they'll loose their power over time, so brand new you might be cutting at 8 milliamp and 10 mm a second.. after a hundred or so hours it might need to slow down to 9 mm a second etc.. as it get's older and more use you have to start slowing down or replace the $250+ ( depending on wattage ) tube to stay efficient. I don't see these people making any more than a efficient scroll sawer.. the real advantage I see is the machine can be running while you do some sanding or other task and if a guy had 2-4 machines running at the same time.. now that's production.. but you also going to have some $$$ investment into a setup like that too.. and the machines are not small or lightweight.. so most hobby folks aren't going to have a production machine setting in their small garage or ? like many of us can do..   

  

[tomsteve]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:56 AM, kmmcrafts said:

 

Many of the booths had a mix of things.. ie one booth I walked by had a few portraits, word art wall hangings, and a few bowls / baskets.. very nice work but the stuff was mixed in with probably his wife's towels and things.. The whole mixed bag of things was not a very impressive look to me,

All that said, I think if I was to do a show I'd want to stick to one thing, either ornaments, clocks, or puzzles..

i did some reading some time ago about selling at craft shows. this is a psychological thing. people tend to stay away from booths with too many different categories of product because it boggles their minds. like going new car shopping at a place that also sells motorcycles, side by sides, boats, snowmobiles.....

booths set up with a few different products with different varieties( scrollsaw puzzles, ornaments, portraits) fare better at craft fairs but thats the nature of craft fairs- sell what ya bring.

art fairs, otoh, tend to be different. they are typically juried. the operators of the art fairs want vendors that are well organized and dont have many different categories of products. 

[zimmerstutzen]

Much of why I got involved in scroll saws is now done on lasers.  I was considering making a German style schwibbogen  (a lighted multi layer window arch.)  And a local discount store had mass produced Chinese laser cut ones for less than $20, that were nearly identical to what I was planning to make.  Even worse, it now appears that most of the ones imported from Germany are now laser cut.

The ornaments I make are cut with a scroll saw out of .25 inch stock, but then carved by hand to 3D and painted.  There are now machines that can duplicate even that, but not with the same differences from piece to piece that tell a customer, mine are indeed individually  hand made. 

Another problem, is that many vendors are merely such.  They are selling mass produced foreign stuff.    Some laser items are local and crafted from the standpoint of the artist actually created the art and converted the item digitally to a computer code to laser produce.  Many do not even do that.  They buy the program for the art on line almost the same as scrollers buy patterns to reproduce.  Except scrollers still need the skill to cut the patterns.  Many laser vendors have merely purchased the codes and shove a piece of wood, leather etc under the laser and flip it on.  

Welcome to a new age.     It is one of the reasons, why I think a person who demonstrates the craft at the show will be the one that sells more.

There was a large outdoor craft show nearby that was shut down for lack of insurance.  Probably 130 vendors normally  While most vendors had large tents and tables, there was one crafts man that sat on a folding chair at a small table.  He had a couple of pliers, a few hammers, a tiny anvil, a blow torch and a few other items in a small tackle box and a large roll of heavy copper wire.  He made jewelry, right there on the spot.  He had very little on display and he sold the items as he finished them. He had a line of people waiting to buy and pretty much whatever he made and most prices were $15 to $30 dollars.   It took him about 8-10 minutes to make a piece.   Little to no inventory, perhaps $70 worth of tools and a pair of strong hands to bend the copper. I'll bet he was making at least $150 an hour.      

 

[Joe W.]

Yesterday's Farmer's Market had a couple people ask if the work was done by a CNC machine.
I took it as a compliment and took the time to show them a piece partially cut out and explain to them how the scroll saw works.
By the way - the Steve Good "Penny Drop" game has been a consistent seller the past four weeks.