My Excalibur EX-21 Has Stopped

[BadBob]

One day it worked, and the next, it did not. This has been coming for a while, as it would occasionally stop for a short time and start running again after a short pause. I thought my foot switch was going bad.

I don't have any voltage at the motor terminals and suspect the electronics have failed.

I dusted off my old RBI Hawk and went to work. What a difference. It is time to retire the old Hawk and buy a new saw.

I'm going to buy a Seyco. I made this decision almost two years after spending some time on the phone with Ray Seymore troubleshooting and rebuilding my EX21.

[Rolf]

Why Seyco and not the Pegas? If you do any bevel cutting the Seyco has a limited range. and the Pegas has the better clamps.

Then again Ray has one of the best records when it comes to support.

Interesting that you mention the Hawk. I am working  on a Charles Hand design and was cutting it on my EX 16. I decided to do it on my Hawk G4 26 instead.

I have the old delta quick clamps on it and more room.

[kmmcrafts]

Sorry to hear that.. or maybe not? LOL.. good reason to buy that new seyco.. I see Seyco ow has a 24" I think it was 24.. Anyway they now have a larger model. I also seen where Seyco is now stocking parts for Pegas saws.. While most the other Pegas dealers are pretty good with customer service, Seyco knocks them out of the water for saw knowledge.. 

I wish I could like the Seyco saw more than I do.. but there are a couple things with the Seyco saw that kinda turns my interest to other saws like Pegas, King and Jet.. Seyco would be the last choice of these style saws unfortunately.. But their customer service and parts inventory etc.. is TOP notch. And now that they stock Pegas parts and also service Pegas.. That's a game changer in my opinion.. However, I service my own saws when they need it.. Nice to have a place that list parts and has them in stock.. One big reason I have not bought a Pegas is nobody was listing parts on their sites.. they show where you can send for repairs but I don't want / do that.. I just want the parts available to order online in the middle of the night.. not call during these times to order... I'm busy during the daytime hours.. I do most my purchasing at night online.. so convenience is important to me. I know Denny sells saws.. but you have to call or email through the buying process.. If I bought a Pegas I'd likely buy somewhere else just because I do like the convenience to order whenever.. Nothing against Denny I'd prefer to order from him.. in fact I'd probably have a Pegas saw by now if he had them on his site to order.. I don't care for Bearwood so they are also a no go for me as well. I've had a Pegas in my shopping cart at bearwood more than a few times and said nope, I'll call Denny tomorrow.. and then get busy and still haven't done that, LOL.. This has been going on for over a year now, LOL..  

As ROLF said interesting about the Hawk.. but I also understand that the EX style saws seem to be a bit more aggressive and I know you do a bit more thick wood cutting.. so I can see your reasoning. If I'm doing fretwork and fine detailed work.. I prefer the Hawk, any thick wood cutting and not real detailed work I prefer the EX. 

My EX has been giving fits with the speed jumping around sometimes.. I know it's probably just the pot. switch.. I'll likely not repair it.. in fact thinking I'm going to be selling it soon. Not sure yet if I'll replace it or not.. nice to have that bit more aggressive cutting saw but having the newer Hawk and the slightly older Hawk I really don't need to replace it..     

Edited October 30, 2022 by kmmcrafts

[OCtoolguy]

5 hours ago, BadBob said:

One day it worked, and the next, it did not. This has been coming for a while, as it would occasionally stop for a short time and start running again after a short pause. I thought my foot switch was going bad.

I don't have any voltage at the motor terminals and suspect the electronics have failed.

I dusted off my old RBI Hawk and went to work. What a difference. It is time to retire the old Hawk and buy a new saw.

I'm going to buy a Seyco. I made this decision almost two years after spending some time on the phone with Ray Seymore troubleshooting and rebuilding my EX21.

You've probably already tried this but if not, exercise both the on/off switch and the rheostat. They both are still able to collect both sawdust and corrosion in one form or another. I take it you've already eliminated the foot switch. Go looking for anyplace that any form of corrosion might have built up. It doesn't take much to form a sort of insulation and not let current pass through. Once you've eliminated all those things and still have the problem, then it's down to either the board or the motor. I've not heard of many problems with either of those though.  Best of luck in your search.

 

[Scrappile]

What would you bevel cut that was over a few degrees?  Not arguing, just curious.  Been scrolling a long time, tried almost all disciplines of scroll sawing and I have never tilted my table top or scroll say head more that a few degrees... Inlay is only a few degrees.  Basket or bowl making maybe a few more degrees. I do like the Pegas method of tilting the table a little better than the seyco, but once I needed to tilt the seyco table and it was not a problem.  Just not quit as nice as a pegas or Excalibor.   The one thing that would push me toward the Pegas over the Seyco is price.  But then if you wanted a bigger table on a Pegas, it price then is very close to the same.  That big table is really nice. It would be a hard decision for me.  Pegas would probably win because I have never had one.  I would hate to buy the same saw twice.  But not for me to worry,  my Hegner is my last saw, unless my rich kids wanted to surprise me.  So far they have not shown any desire to surprise me... still getting underwear, socks and a bad time for Christmas!!

[BadBob]

22 hours ago, Rolf said:

the Seyco has a limited range

This is an excellent point that I have yet to consider. I have never cut anything at an angle, but I have a book about making bowls with a scroll and want to try my hand at it.

The plan is to replace my old RBI Hawk 220 with a new saw and repair the EX21. If I buy the Seyco, I would still be able to cut 45 degrees with the EX21. I want to have two saws similar enough that I can skip a relearning period when I need to switch to the backup. I'm using the RBI Hawk 220 now, and it takes me several hours to get used to it.

[BadBob]

22 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

but I also understand that the EX style saws seem to be a bit more aggressive and I know you do a bit more thick wood cutting

I regularly cut 1-1/2 inch stock, and I have cut 2 inches. My hawk has an old-style blade mounting system, which is a pain to use, and if the lower clamp falls out, I could be crawling around the shop for an hour trying to find it.

[BadBob]

17 hours ago, OCtoolguy said:

You've probably already tried this but if not, exercise both the on/off switch and the rheostat. They both are still able to collect both sawdust and corrosion in one form or another. I take it you've already eliminated the foot switch.

I have checked every thing all the way back to the motor. Their is no voltage on the motor. I also checked the brushes. The brushes look good to me but I don't have any specs for them. All of the motors I have worked on the past had a minimum brush length.

[BadBob]

16 hours ago, Scrappile said:

What would you bevel cut that was over a few degrees?

Bowls

[BadBob]

Do you know where the circuit board is in an EX21?

[kmmcrafts]

1 minute ago, BadBob said:

Do you know where the circuit board is in an EX21?

In the back plastic section right behind or very close to where the power cord goes into the saw.. At least on my China version, LOL..

I like the Seyco for the big table.. and as has been mentioned I don't like the tilting mechanism.. I don't like the magnet thing for the table.. some say it last a very long time.. but the paint on the table last a lot of folks a very long time too, LOL.. my paint lasted almost 3 weeks.. I feel like I'd be buying stock in those magnets sheets if I had a Seyco.. and the table is recessed where that sheet sets so you have to have something there.. Other than those couple things I really like the saw so I look forward to how you like it once you get some time on it.

[Norm Fengstad]

I have a Seyco , bought it  four years ago. It gets lots of use, only issue I ever had with it is some screw bolts came loose and I had to put some lock-tite on the arm adjustment threads as for the blade clamps. I put Pegas on my Dewalt not much difference. As for bevel/ angle cutting I don't mind  the Seyco idea. The magnetic sheet that sits on the table did wear out and shipping to where I live is expensive but a magnetic sign material has been a good replacement 

[Scrappile]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:47 AM, BadBob said:

I regularly cut 1-1/2 inch stock, and I have cut 2 inches. My hawk has an old-style blade mounting system, which is a pain to use, and if the lower clamp falls out, I could be crawling around the shop for an hour trying to find it.

the clamp falling out or flying out when a blade breaks can happen on the Hegner also.  Can be a pain.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Scrappile

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, BadBob said:

I regularly cut 1-1/2 inch stock, and I have cut 2 inches. My hawk has an old-style blade mounting system, which is a pain to use, and if the lower clamp falls out, I could be crawling around the shop for an hour trying to find it.

Sounds like you need a new blade holder clip or adjustment to the one you have if it's the metal one. 

This is what you need for a round barrel style clamp https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/barrel-style-blade-holder-clip/

This is the one if you have a Ultra saw. https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/ultra-blade-holder-clip/

The newer saws they made these from spring steel so you can adjust them ( bend the metal up tighter to the holder ) but the older style use a plastic clip and over time the plastic gets weak and doesn't hold the blade holder well.

I imagine one could make one from some spring steel fairly easy.. if you're able to bend and form the metal around the blade holder to mold the shape etc.. Not rocket science and sure beats crawling around searching the the blade holder.

[Eplfan2011]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Sounds like you need a new blade holder clip or adjustment to the one you have if it's the metal one. 

This is what you need for a round barrel style clamp https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/barrel-style-blade-holder-clip/

This is the one if you have a Ultra saw. https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/ultra-blade-holder-clip/

The newer saws they made these from spring steel so you can adjust them ( bend the metal up tighter to the holder ) but the older style use a plastic clip and over time the plastic gets weak and doesn't hold the blade holder well.

I imagine one could make one from some spring steel fairly easy.. if you're able to bend and form the metal around the blade holder to mold the shape etc.. Not rocket science and sure beats crawling around searching the the blade holder.

I had the same problem when I got my hawk. I got a few of the plastic clips Kevin mentioned so I would have some on hand in case I broke one.

[BadBob]

20 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Sounds like you need a new blade holder clip or adjustment to the one you have if it's the metal one. 

This is what you need for a round barrel style clamp https://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/barrel-style-blade-holder-clip/

Mine is steel, and it is very tight., Fortunately, it rarely falls out. The one in your link has sides on it. Mine does not. I may get one of those and see if it fits.

Edited November 1, 2022 by BadBob
correction

[BadBob]

My Hawk Model Number is 220, and it is a two-speed. I bought it cheap from someone who purchased it with a shop full of woodworking tools and never used it. I cleaned it up, replaced some parts, and upgraded everything I could. It worked well and considerably better than the AMT cast iron saw I used for years. A few things I don't like. The blade changes and making internal cuts are a pain. While it isn't a huge issue, I'm not too fond of aluminum tables and prefer steel or cast iron. This saw has exposed electrical connections under the bottom of the saw. I have been considering replacing it for a couple of years and would like to pick up another used EX21. However, good quality scroll saws are rare in the used market where I live.

[BadBob]

I was on the phone with Ray Seymore yesterday and got a few tips I had yet to consider and instructions on removing the circuit board. I have yet to have a chance to do this, with it being Halloween and a custom order that came in. Custom orders are why I have two saws.

[OCtoolguy]

Another thought came to mind. There is a fuse right where the cord plugs into the saw. It's well hidden so you have to search it out.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by OCtoolguy

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, BadBob said:

My Hawk Model Number is 220, and it is a two-speed. I bought it cheap from someone who purchased it with a shop full of woodworking tools and never used it. I cleaned it up, replaced some parts, and upgraded everything I could. It worked well and considerably better than the AMT cast iron saw I used for years. A few things I don't like. The blade changes and making internal cuts are a pain. While it isn't a huge issue, I'm not too fond of aluminum tables and prefer steel or cast iron. This saw has exposed electrical connections under the bottom of the saw. I have been considering replacing it for a couple of years and would like to pick up another used EX21. However, good quality scroll saws are rare in the used market where I live.

It's been a lot of years since they made a 2 speed Hawks.. You have one of those old saws that is a PIA to use, LOL I can certainly see why you have little interest in using it. Especially cutting thicker stock. Hope you get the Excalibur up and running with Rays advice of things to check.

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

It's been a lot of years since they made a 2 speed Hawks.. You have one of those old saws that is a PIA to use, LOL I can certainly see why you have little interest in using it. Especially cutting thicker stock. Hope you get the Excalibur up and running with Rays advice of things to check.

My first saw, which I never did use, was a 2 speed Hawk bought in about 1986 at a Woodworking Show in Colorado Springs. I bought it without ever thinking about what I'd use it for. So it never got used. 26" throat if I recall.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, OCtoolguy said:

My first saw, which I never did use, was a 2 speed Hawk bought in about 1986 at a Woodworking Show in Colorado Springs. I bought it without ever thinking about what I'd use it for. So it never got used. 26" throat if I recall.

Yeah, The single speed and 3 speed ran by belt to change speeds on some of them. They was all mostly pre-90's saws.. The old 220VS I had was a 1993 that I got really cheap was my first one.. Took a couple hundred to get it running right as it needed work. Great old saw but nothing close to the new saws with the blade being out in front of the angle mechanism etc.. much better for changing blades etc.. While those old saws ran fairly smooth once tuned good,  I doubt one could pass the Nickle test.. 

[TAIrving]

On 10/30/2022 at 8:03 AM, Rolf said:

Why Seyco and not the Pegas? If you do any bevel cutting the Seyco has a limited range. and the Pegas has the better clamps.

Then again Ray has one of the best records when it comes to support.

Interesting that you mention the Hawk. I am working  on a Charles Hand design and was cutting it on my EX 16. I decided to do it on my Hawk G4 26 instead.

I have the old delta quick clamps on it and more room.

In today's ScrollSawWorkshop newsletter, Steve Good does a walk-through of his shop.  For scroll saws he says that he has 2 which he uses regularly, Seyco and Pegas, and another 5 that he seldom uses.  I trust his opinion about scroll saws.  

[BadBob]

My EX21 is down and I get three custom orders. Go figure.

This is why I have two saws even if the second one is old an clunky it will still get the job done.

[BadBob]

me think the motor is bad. The brushes are good.

However, I found one thing that doesn't seem right. The DC output from the controller board fluctuates. The output fluctuates a lot when it is cold. After a short time the fluctuations settle down a bit, but it never stops fluctuating. I have worked on many power supplies from 5VDC to 50,000VDC. None of these power supplies were voltage fluctuations acceptable.

I think something is wrong with the controller board, which may have damaged the motor.

Today I plan to disconnect the motor from the linkage and see if it spins.

Controller board output after it warms up on an analog volt meter.