What brands would be considered "commercial" or "light industrial" rated scroll saws?

[Tallbald]

I think of "commercial or light industrial rated" tools as for example my 1987 Mississippi USA manufactured Delta 14 inch band saw, my General Tools  Canadian-made 1998 160-2 VS lathe (vocational school target buyers) and my Bosch 460 VSE saber saw. Available to home shop craftspersons but also capable of 8 hour work days 5 days a week. It seems to be a matter of ball, roller and needle bearings rather than oilite sleeve bearings, copper wound motors, and heavy gauge steel frames with seasoned cast iron flats in tools. Those sort of upgraded features.

All levels of tools have their place and I have had and still have many tools that fall along the quality spectrum. Perfectly fine for their price point and features for what I need.

Thing for me is that for example I read about Pegas using needle bearings rather than sleeve bearings in some articulated joints. That's great. I cannot find though on an exploded parts list of the Jet saws what type bearings are used in the joints. List just says "bearing". These features are important to me. A retired tool and die maker, I look at features like these when making buying decisions.

So what would be considered the brands of scroll saws to use in a commercial setting please? Seyco, Jet, Pegas, DEWalt?

I sure hope this doesn't open a can of worms. I sure don't mean to offend anyone or any manufacturer.

 

[Scrappile]

Commercial setting, Hegner and Hawk. Just my opinion.

[kmmcrafts]

I would put Hegner and Hawk saws at the top of commercial machines.. Just my opinion but I myself do not consider Excalibur, Pegas, King, DeWalt or any of the other saws as "commercial".. well built and designed? Yes.. commercial? Not really in my mind.. That's coming from one that does scroll work for a living.. Have owned DeWalt and like saws.. get maybe at best 1.5 - 2 years ( approx. ) 300 runtime hours on them ( yes I wired up hour meters on all my equipment ).. Having to rebuild / replace a DeWalt / Excalibur every couple years is a pain but if you really like those particular saws and calculate it into your expenses then that's great.. Having had my Hawk BM-26 since 2018 and run about 500 hours on it now.. no sign of wear on any of the parts including thumb and set screws.. still running like it always did... I think that's the way to go for a saw for commercial use myself but others will disagree. 

I personally don't see any issue with bearing types so long as they're designed well with their application.. Hawk saws run ball bearings and have served me very well.. Hegner saws use the Oillite bushing type bearings and they seem to hold up very well on those saws... 

Considering the very similar design in the Pegas, King, DeWalt type saws and the fact they're made by the same company I would most certainly think the Jet has the same bearing set up. Something to consider is build design.. A Hawk or Hegner has only about 5-7 bearings in the whole saw... Pegas DeWalt etc type saws have nearly 20 bearings.. lots of pivot points.. and slight amount of wear in just a few of these bearings become a huge amount of slop at the blade end of the saw.. 

Back in 2010 when I first rebuilt my DeWalt with new bearings.. the cost of every bearing in the saw cost $200.. I pressed new bearings into the saw.. Back in 2020 when I rebuilt my Excalibur.. It cost me nearly $300 for all those bearings and sleeve inserts etc.. IF I was to need to rebuild my Hawk.. bearings are around $6 each with the exception of one big bearing on the motor that I've never heard of having a issue but if it did maybe $50 for that one. The whole saw could be rebuilt in just a hour or so but to be fair I'll say 2 hours.. Takes nearly 30 minutes on these other saws just to get access to the bearings. About 4 hours if you have to press in the new bearings etc. but maybe 2-3 if you just buy the whole assembly and swap the parts out.

That all being said, I like the Pegas and like saws.. and will probably always keep one in my shop.. they have a different cutting style and have features that Hawk and Hegner do not have.. great saws.. I just don't think with the design and all those bearings they are up to a "commercial use" standard...   

[Tallbald]

Excellent, excellent information. Now a Hawk question or three. Were I to begin looking for a Hawk scroll saw, are there certain older models (the ones as I more frequently see on Craigslist and Farcebook Marketplace) that one should look for? Every manufacturer of tooling has a model or two that stands out as a perfect example of design and function. And then there are the less spectacular models that some wish they had not met. Interestingly too,  I've read that many parts on an RBI Hawk can be replaced with typical hardware store parts. I don't know if that's exaggeration or not but if correct it would sure be cost effective for me.

Specifically, are there older Hawk models that include the most desirable features of the Hawk line? I'd guess that an older machine could be retrofitted with some features of newer models. Are the Pegas blade clamps so many prefer able to be fitted to the Hawks?

I suppose I'm asking if a mechanically inclined person could turn a used but not abused Hawk into a stellar performer with a go-through for worn parts and perhaps upgrades? I do have time and skills. And oh yes! I have enthusiasm.

Thank you once again. Don

[Eplfan2011]

I bought a 1998 vs226 and the only thing I upgraded was the blower tube and lock line everything else is fine.

The Pegas chucks do not fit the hawk but the chucks on it work fine, and if you feel the need you can upgrade to the latest ones. 

 I have also found parts for the saw a pretty cheap.

[Oldmansbike]

I have a 1996 vs226 Hawk that I bought new. I have replaced the spring on the back that holds the arm up and the nylon washer on top of the wedge. This saw has had a lot of use and still runs like the day I bought it. Every couple of years I take the saw apart and clean and  put a little lube on things. I guess I would consider a Hawk a commercial saw.

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, Tallbald said:

Excellent, excellent information. Now a Hawk question or three. Were I to begin looking for a Hawk scroll saw, are there certain older models (the ones as I more frequently see on Craigslist and Farcebook Marketplace) that one should look for? Every manufacturer of tooling has a model or two that stands out as a perfect example of design and function. And then there are the less spectacular models that some wish they had not met. Interestingly too,  I've read that many parts on an RBI Hawk can be replaced with typical hardware store parts. I don't know if that's exaggeration or not but if correct it would sure be cost effective for me.

Specifically, are there older Hawk models that include the most desirable features of the Hawk line? I'd guess that an older machine could be retrofitted with some features of newer models. Are the Pegas blade clamps so many prefer able to be fitted to the Hawks?

I suppose I'm asking if a mechanically inclined person could turn a used but not abused Hawk into a stellar performer with a go-through for worn parts and perhaps upgrades? I do have time and skills. And oh yes! I have enthusiasm.

Thank you once again. Don

Ideally, a Hawk G4 or BM series is the Cadillac of the Hawk saws.. but those are the newer models G4's started around 2005 and then the BM series came out in like 2012? ish.. Used ones are somewhat scarce to find.. Most of what you see out there for sale is the old 1980's and 90's era. Somewhere around the mid 90's and older there was quite a lot of them that got a bad rap because of the VS ( variable speed controller and or the motor ) or motor had issues and so many will say stay away from those. 

The "Ultra" version came out around 95-6 and they are pretty good saws.. They run the more square looking lower blade clamp. stay away from any that have the round barrel style clamps as those would be the ones with the motor issues.. even though I loved the one I had.. lots of people have issues with the clamping style of the lower clamp.. If you find one cheap enough they are decent saws just know you might have a burnt up motor at any given time.. I only gave $100 for the one I had but I did do a lot of upgrades and rebuilding of it.. and figured I was smart enough and have some good electric motor shops around I thought I could probably find a reasonable way and cost effective enough to retrofit a different motor on it if I needed to.. ran great the whole time I had it.. sold it to a member here and last I know it's still going good. That all said I do recommend a Ultra or newer saw.. 

I don't have any personal experience with Hegner but I'd say they would be one to look out for as well.. I want to give one a spin one day myself... just waiting on the right right one with the right price.. There are things to know with those as well when it comes to older and newer models. I'm probably not educated enough to give advice on those..   

[Wichman]

Hegner ( I have the 22" saw) or Hawk for light industrial use. The Hegner Polymax 3 for commercial,  40 hrs a week, cutting.

 

In my ( not so humble ) opinion, any saw with the motor in the back of the saw, is only in the "serious hobbyist" category.  The motor in the back puts more pressure on the motor and it's connection points ( leverage, force on the blade while cutting multiplied by the length of the arm ). In my opinion, this will lead to a shorter lifespan.

[Tallbald]

Thank you very much. I'm bookmarking this thread. The Farcebook Marketplace Hawks I looked into are "no longer available" but the ads have not been removed. Seems to happen fairly often with FB and Craigslist too I've learned.

I do not have to rush finding an upgrade saw. I have our little Wen 16 inch capable of much more than I myself am yet capable of doing. In addition to puzzle crafting I've seen the joy that making wooden toys can both bring and give. So I'm reading, studying and enjoyably planning projects.

 In the next two weeks I must have a second dominant (right) shoulder surgical repair. Struck in the rear of my truck by a full size pickup while I was at full stop about 2 months ago tore loose tendons that were just repaired June of 2021. 4 months of physical therapy are expected with what has to be done and scroll sawing isn't an approved exercise. But I can watch for what comes on the market locally. And stay current here as I heal.

Thanks once more.

Don

 

[preprius]

Slight side step topic.. 

With all this dissussion, it reminds me to be thankful for @OCtoolguy for helping me buy a used Hawk. 26".  I did not know a hawk was industrial grade machine.  Used at $400,  2 years ago.  I think the 26" allowed me to be a bit more creative.  But not always needed.

The drill press is now a limiting factor.  Throat distance becomes an issue on bowls. Oops that is a different post topic.

These machine discussions also reminds me to wax the table.  So I just did.

 

Me.

Mark Eason

 

[Jim Finn]

I have a hawk and a Hegner.  Lots of adjustment issues with the hawk and none with the Hegner.  Hegner is the only saw I know of that states that it is made for 8 hours a day, everyday use. The Polymax 3 is the one I have and use it to do all my inlays.  I also have a 15" Jet that was made decades ago that I use to make toys.  Both of these saws have induction motors and are single speed.  The Hegner, however, is belt driven and can be slowed down by moving the belt to different sizes on the pully.  I leave it on slow to do the inlays. I have used the Hegner every day, for hours usually, since I bought it new in 2008. No problems or repairs.  (I do not do fretwork)

[stoney]

I can attest to Hegner brand.  I bought my Multi Max 22v in March 2008 and have not had to replace any parts yet.  I don't use mine commercially but I believe you could.  Like any good machine if it is treated well will give many trouble free hours of use.

Edited November 14, 2022 by stoney

[Tallbald]

Thank you each for your insightful replies. Your help means a lot to me and have given me much to think over.

I've decided after reading, studying pricing and seriously debating my project goals that I just cannot afford or justify for me one of the top price tier, light industrial rated saws any time in my future. I'm an older guy in my mid 60's (hard to remember that because I don't feel "old") and cannot reasonably expect 20 years use from a new tool. Wish I'd have grabbed a Hegner back in the late 1980's but I had a mortgage and young children. My fun was secondary to other's needs in my mind.

I believe I'm going to have to limit myself to the $1000 top price range. I'll choose carefully from among the great saws in my price range. And keep watch on the used tool market in my region closely. In the meantime I'm excited to plan projects using our little Wen. Puzzles and toys are well within the capabilities of our saw I know.

I suspect that a Jet scroll saw is in my future. Most likely the smaller 18 inch throat saw. Not many reviews on that model on Youtube but several written reviews that reflect favorably.

Thanks again folks.

Don

 

[kmmcrafts]

8 minutes ago, Tallbald said:

Thank you each for your insightful replies. Your help means a lot to me and have given me much to think over.

I've decided after reading, studying pricing and seriously debating my project goals that I just cannot afford or justify for me one of the top price tier, light industrial rated saws any time in my future. I'm an older guy in my mid 60's (hard to remember that because I don't feel "old") and cannot reasonably expect 20 years use from a new tool. Wish I'd have grabbed a Hegner back in the late 1980's but I had a mortgage and young children. My fun was secondary to other's needs in my mind.

I believe I'm going to have to limit myself to the $1000 top price range. I'll choose carefully from among the great saws in my price range. And keep watch on the used tool market in my region closely. In the meantime I'm excited to plan projects using our little Wen. Puzzles and toys are well within the capabilities of our saw I know.

I suspect that a Jet scroll saw is in my future. Most likely the smaller 18 inch throat saw. Not many reviews on that model on Youtube but several written reviews that reflect favorably.

Thanks again folks.

Don

 

Maybe you should ask what the runner ups are to the top commercial use saw, LOL.. I totally understand how the price can reflect a decision on those high end saws.. 

To be fair, I would say that the Jet, Pegas and those other saws in that category are not too far behind on quality.. and I'm assuming you're not going to be running a full fletch business using only the scroll saw.. I'd say that Jet would get you through without too much trouble if any.. Many crafters find "other tools " and hobbies along the way and don't set at a scroll saw for 8 hours a day much like I was doing.. I now have a laser and CNC and not using the scroll saw as much as I once did.. I've only seen a handful of folks talking about having to rebuild a Excalibur ( the original ones not the china ones ) or Jet, Pegas etc.. of coarse Jet and Pegas haven't been around a real long time yet.. BUT the same system as the original Excalibur.. 

I myself have been considering the 18" Jet.. cheapest saw out there in its league from Home Depot..  I got to snooping around and downloaded the manual for the saw and it list individual parts like bearings and bearing sleeves etc.. ALL of the other saw brands list part assemblies.. so if you have 1 bad bearing you buy a whole assembly to repair it.. not just the one bearing. It's easy to find bearings based off the bearing size and dimension.. however it's not easy to find the bearing sleeve or inserts for the EX, Pegas saws.. they want to sell you a $130+ assembly.. instead of a $10 bearing and sleeve. BRAVO to Jet for doing it this way.. Likely those bearings and sleeves are the same throughout the Pegas and other brand saws as they are all made in the same factory.. Of all the saws that I've rebuilt of this style there is only a couple bearings that really take a beating.. the rest are always like new still,  but as I said it cost a couple hundred because you replace assemblies instead of just the bearing needed.. I even went to a bearing specialty shop to try to source the bearings and sleeves.. bearings they could get easily.. sleeves nope.. can't get that it must be something made in house was what I was told.

Just to clarify what I said above.. Pegas and like saws also list individual parts in the manuals too... however looking up those parts you can only buy as an assembly.. unless possibly calling them directly.. Jet you can copy the part number and paste into google and it'll bring up the bearing or sleeve and the price and a add to cart to purchase right there.. This is nowhere to be found for a Pegas, Excalibur, or King etc. type saws..     

[Tallbald]

Kevin you touch on some very important facets of the Jet over some other makes of saw. I'm a retired toolmaker used to repairing my own mechanical components of tooling. being able to buy individual bearings and other components is a big plus for me.. 

I am medically retired and there's no way I could set or stand for hours at a time in a business environment. The Jet/Pegas type machines, although more complex than the Hegner and Hawk would I agree last me until I check out. They would also have the benefit to me of the features scroll sawyers seem to most appreciate. A couple to 4 hours a couple times weekly would likely be all I could manage at a saw. But that's quite a few toys, puzzles, intarsia projects and doodads to keep my mind and body active and creating.

Thanks as always.

Don

[barb.j.enders]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:26 PM, Tallbald said:

The Farcebook Marketplace

Probably a mistype but love it!!!

[Tallbald]

Grin. A mistype?!? Noooo. Not me. Grin.

Don

[BadBob]

I just ran across this in my EX-21 manual.

 

"However, the Limited Lifetime Warranty does not cover any product used for professional or commercial production purposes nor for industrial or educational applications. Such
cases are covered by our Standard 2-year Limited Warranty only. The Limited Lifetime Warranty
is also subject to the “Conditions and Exceptions” as listed below."