Dust Pump

[TAIrving]

I am really not a neatness freak but I do have my limits.  So I do work at cleaning/vacuuming up the sawdust in my shop. 

I conclude that my shop vac is performing as a Dust Pump!   Read on.

Recently I notice that I keep getting a film of fine sawdust on every surface in my shop.  I clean up as best I can, go about my woodworking tasks of the day and, at the end of the day I clean up and vacuum.  The next day the film of fine sawdust seems to be a bit thicker than it was the day before. 

It appears to be caused by my shop vac and the bargain vacuum bags I bought for it.  I compared the bags available and got what I thought was the best bargain.  I now conclude that these bags filter nothing, at least not the fine sawdust I am finding all over my shop.  I am now back to shopping for bags and looking at their filtering specs.  I see some that claim to filter 87% of particles 0.5 microns.  The bags I bought previously say nothing about their filtering capabilities.  

I have a Wen 3415 air filtration system in my shop and it helps.  I observe that the first filter, the 5 micron one, collects a lot of sawdust but that the second/inner filter, the 1 micron one, collects very little.  Thus I conclude that most of the sawdust in my shop is 5 microns or larger.   But apparently a lot of the sawdust in my shop settles out before being sucked through the Wen unit.

Have any of you had a similar experience? What did you do to solve it?

BTW, I will make someone a real deal on a package of shop vacuum bags, 9 remaining of an original package of 10.  

[OCtoolguy]

It is what it is. The nature of woodworking. If you want to work in a "clean room" I suggest going into the computer industry. You are fighting an unwinnable battle. I'm thinking of a large fan in one window and a large exit window on the opposite wall might be the best solution.

[kmmcrafts]

The best source for dust collection is catching it at the source before going airborne with a "Good" Hepa type filtration system.. Not just a ordinary shop vacuum unless you have one that has Hepa type filtration. Not just your scroll saw is spewing dust.. I find that my biggest fine dust producer is the sanders.. I even have the ones with a canister that collects the dust but it still escapes and goes into the air.. 

Just yesterday I was looking at my local wood / tool suppliers and I was looking over the Festool Vac and sanders.. Hard to swallow that $500 for the cheaper of their vacs and then another near $500 for a sander, LOL I keep saying one day I'm going to do that.. I've heard they have some really good quality tools etc.. they better have for that kind of money.. My question would be.. for those tools.. I imagine there is still going to be "some" airborne dust no matter how much I spend on tools that are supposed to minimize that dust.. 

As Ray said, Maybe time to find a less dirty hobby if it's bothering you that much.. I loved it when I had a wood lathe and did some turning.. However those make a huge mess and really fast.. I sold it shortly after getting it mainly because of that mess... 

IF you like working with wood but don't like that messy dust.. maybe look into getting yourself a laser cutter.. one that extracts the smoke.. I find if I don't do any sanding of the thin plywoods and I only run my laser.. I rarely have any dust.. I'm kinda leaning towards doing more laser work and less scrolling.. My shop is really in my garage and I'm also getting kinda fet up with the dust on my classic cars if I park them inside during the winter months, when I get them out in the spring they look like they've been locked up in a barn for 40 years. LOL 

[Ron Johnson]

My shop is 8 x 12 and I have two high quality shop vacs that are reasonably quiet installed with the best bags available. One is set up with my router table and or table saw. The other is set up for use with my bench band saw, drill press, disc sander and etc. I don’t use any vacuum for my scroll saw being I like it quite and wear a high quality face mask for protection. I clean up immediately after each mess eliminating any build up of dust and do the same at the end of each day ready for the next fresh. I’ve been doing this for twenty five years and I’ve never had any big issues with dust. Dust comes with the pleasure of wood working so each must manage it in their own way. This is my way. 

[Sycamore67]

I have a Ridgid shop vac and it is great with no dust coming out.  The dust filter in it works very well.  On my scroll saw, I have my Festool dust extractor hooked up.  It is HEPA rated and very quiet. Yes, expensive but very worthwhile for me.

For the bigger tools, I have a dust collector plumbed throughout the shop.

[kmmcrafts]

I have a big Shopvac brand shopvac and I use the paper cartridge filters.. Also NOTE there are better filters too... For mine there is a standard paper filter and then there is a better one for smaller particles.. in my case it's a blue colored filter.. and the paper is more like a cloth? I'm not sure what it's made of but it is a different material. Plus as you already learned of about the bags.. I use the better bags made for fine dust.. I also bought a muffler for the exhaust air coming out of the back of the vac.. I really don't think it made it much quieter but the muffler is a foam thing that just clips into the exhaust port.. I imagine that might help with filtering a little too. I also have the grizzly ceiling mount dust filtration system which is just like the WEN you have. While that thing does get a lot of dust in the filter it is helping some.. The biggest one is just the cheap box fan with furnace filter.. it moves way more air than the ceiling mount thing, and works very well. Unfortunately the hand sanders is my biggest issue even though it doesn't spew out dust terrible as the dust filter / canister catches most of it.. it does spew some out of the side of the sander. I used to have a box fan / filter set up on the side where the dust spews out of that RO sander and it'd fill the filter up with dust at a sanding sesion.. I'd take it outside and tap the filter on the trash can and it'd look like a smoke cloud, LOL.. I have the Seyco scroll saw dust collection on the saw as well and that helps a lot too.. I just need to get a collection source for the top side of the saw table and I think 99% of it would be collected right at the source. 

I just think that, no matter how much collection and filtration you do.. there is probably going to be some fine dust settle every day because that is just the nature of making sawdust. LOL About 3-4 times a year I take my shop vac and a brush vac attachment and vac the whole shop.. all the tools and stands, walls, shop lights etc. etc. Pretty much takes a whole day to do a full cleaning.. While it's clean I use the Johnson's past wax and wax the saws, stands etc.. having the wax on the equipment helps keep the dust from sticking to them and makes for easier cleaning.. plus keeps rust of the table tops etc.

 

[oldhudson]

I have a Shopvac brand shopvac (hang-up model). I use paper bags and cartridge filters from Amazon. I have clearly noticed that when the bag gets near full it starts exhausting fine dust. When a fresh bag is put in it works better. I replace the filter with bag changes. My personal experience.

[Blaughn]

Fighting "micro dust" has spawned an entire industry.  You can buy air purifiers starting in the $100's and proceeding into the $1000's.  I concluded to use an N-95 face mask and let the rest fall where it may.  

Bruce

[Sycamore67]

I use s dust mask at times but prefer to try to collect at source.a BB d use an air filter.  For me, the issue is also that the dust get on the clothes and so when I take the mask off, I breath the dust from my clothes.

It comes down to how much dust you can tolerate.

[rash_powder]

I've seen some very ingenious DIY designs for air filtration on YouTube.  Lots of people are building housings to mount multiple filters (as highly rated as you like) that filter gobs of air.  A HEPA filter on a high-quality box fan hanging from the ceiling above a scroll saw might be a cheap and effective way to control that dust.  

[Rolf]

Kevin (kmmcrafts) First and most important. What classic cars? 

Regarding the Festool tools. I won a raffle and for a $10 ticket I won a Festool track saw with track. That gave me a taste. Festool briefly had a RO sander for sale @ $99 I put it on my Christmas list. But they disappeared almost instantly Santa brought me the ETS 125 RO sander.  The next day I ordered a Festool MIDI HEPA vac. Absolutely amazing quiet and when not in use with the RO it is connected to my Scrollsaw.  It is not great for general shop cleanup! I still have a shop vac for the big stuff with the drywall bags in it.  

I also have a central dust collector Jet Vortex with the Canister filter 86% of 1 micron particles; 98% of 2 micron particles. an absolute must for me since I do Intarsia.

[kmmcrafts]

12 hours ago, Rolf said:

Kevin (kmmcrafts) First and most important. What classic cars? 

Regarding the Festool tools. I won a raffle and for a $10 ticket I won a Festool track saw with track. That gave me a taste. Festool briefly had a RO sander for sale @ $99 I put it on my Christmas list. But they disappeared almost instantly Santa brought me the ETS 125 RO sander.  The next day I ordered a Festool MIDI HEPA vac. Absolutely amazing quiet and when not in use with the RO it is connected to my Scrollsaw.  It is not great for general shop cleanup! I still have a shop vac for the big stuff with the drywall bags in it.  

I also have a central dust collector Jet Vortex with the Canister filter 86% of 1 micron particles; 98% of 2 micron particles. an absolute must for me since I do Intarsia.

I now have a 1984 Nissan 300ZX and also ( not really a classic but still a toy ) a 2007 Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged with a built 2.0 4cyl. tuned to run on alcohol ( E85 ), dynoed at 385HP at the wheels.. That thing would run circles around my last toy that I sold a few years back which was a 1971 Chevelle SS.. also beats the MPG too so I can actually afford to take it out a little more, LOL. I built it to do time attack racing but I still need to do the suspension work for that and actually having fun just driving it around the streets may not even race it now. I bought the car last spring with a blown motor ( timing chain guide bolt broke and took out the valves and pistons ) and built it over the summer.  The 300ZX needs a lot of work but was a 1 owner low mile car from Florida, it was my oldest sons project then my youngest bought it. I found a real nice one on marketplace so my youngest bought it and sold me the "project" LOL. Probably end up selling them, I'm not much of a collector... more of a builder / restorer and then move them on and start another build, LOL.. 

I've really been looking at the Festool RO sanders.. how do you like yours? I might splurge one day soon and buy the vac and a sander.. Been on my mind for a few years almost bought the vac last weekend when I was browsing through the local dealer.. 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by kmmcrafts

[Rolf]

385 at the wheels from a 2 liter! Amazing power to weight. That is my car ~1600 lbs and the motor tweaked to 150 from 89 hp on the Dyno. 

Regarding The Festool RO all other sanders that I have used tire my hands (vibration) This one does not. Also when you turn it off it stops almost instantly. and with the vacuum attached no dust. 

Someone just came out with a new Vacuum that is super quiet and at a really great price, one of the big name brands. I just cant remember who.

[OCtoolguy]

9 hours ago, Rolf said:

385 at the wheels from a 2 liter! Amazing power to weight. That is my car ~1600 lbs and the motor tweaked to 150 from 89 hp on the Dyno. 

Regarding The Festool RO all other sanders that I have used tire my hands (vibration) This one does not. Also when you turn it off it stops almost instantly. and with the vacuum attached no dust. 

Someone just came out with a new Vacuum that is super quiet and at a really great price, one of the big name brands. I just cant remember who.

Are you talking about that Dewalt that someone here mentioned in another thread? 

[Rolf]

16 hours ago, OCtoolguy said:

Are you talking about that Dewalt that someone here mentioned in another thread? 

This review is pretty good. With a sound level of 60DB that is great. Especially for around $140. 

My Festool MIDI was $647 (in 2018) with a 62 DB level at low suction. It is a HEPA vacuum which the Dewalt is not.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Rolf

[Scrappile]

Interesting on the Festool  shutting off instantly.  My Fien would continue to run a second or so after the tool was turned off, the advertised reason was to remove any dust collect and still in the hose once you shut the tool off.    I am seriously thinking about the new Dewalt quiet vac.  It is smaller than my big Ridgid which is noisy.  Be easier to make a cart that will hold the vac and dust deputy.   But I do not think the normal shop vacs are made to be going on and off constantly like they would attached to a scroll saw.  I could be wrong.  

[kmmcrafts]

46 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Interesting on the Festool  shutting off instantly.  My Fien would continue to run a second or so after the tool was turned off, the advertised reason was to remove any dust collect and still in the hose once you shut the tool off.    I am seriously thinking about the new Dewalt quiet vac.  It is smaller than my big Ridgid which is noisy.  Be easier to make a cart that will hold the vac and dust deputy.   But I do not think the normal shop vacs are made to be going on and off constantly like they would attached to a scroll saw.  I could be wrong.  

Might be wrong but I think he was talking about the Festool random orbital sander shutting off instantly when he turns it off. I've watched a live demo at the local wood expo show and the dust vacuum does run for 3-5 seconds after shutting the tool off.. so I think it's the same timer set up like the Fien

[CharleyL]

My shop is small, so no room for large chip collectors. The Unisaw collects it's own saw dust in it's cabinet and I shovel it out. The jointer chips slide down a wood chute into a small waste can. My Dewalt planer never gets used in the shop. It goes outside in the driveway parking area and I connect the accessory hose and barrel cover to a plastic 55 gallon barrel when it gets used. The finer dust generators, like my scroll saws, drill presses, sanders, routers, etc all get connected to a repurposed whole house vacuum system, with a Dust Deputy in the line between the shop inlet connections and the central vacuum. The Dust Deputy sits on top of a 25 gallon former grease barrel that has been re-purposed for dust collection. Almost none of the dust collected makes it past the Dust Deputy, so the collection container of the central vacuum only ever has a trace of extremely fine dust coating on it. Any of this dust, which seems to be about what you are talking about, never gets back into my shop or lungs, because the exhaust of this central vacuum is connected through an outlet with a flap cover just below the soffit of the roof of my shop. It's pointed North toward a lake, so most of the noise cannot be heard by my neighbors. A far away jet plane is about what it sounds like to them. 

For your dust problem, since it is the micro fine dust that is getting into your shop air and then settling on your tools (and more importantly into your lungs) I strongly suggest that you provide an exhaust hose connection to an exit port in your shop wall somewhere (or through a hole in a window panel) so the dust exhausted from your vacuum never gets back into your shop air. It's too small to filter and this is the most hazardous size for your lungs, so just blow it to the outdoors high and directed away from nearby civilization. Let the winds thin it and spread it far and wide.

 

Charley 

[kmmcrafts]

Just my opinion but I think any vacuum you use is going to spew out some fine dust.. Unless you get one that is Hepa filtered.. Yeah you can get a hepa type filter for a regular shop vac.. but it still just isn't designed to be a dust extractor like a Festool.. The Fien vac is a bit cheaper but it also doesn't come standard as a Hepa certified vac.. unless they've changed that since I researched it a few years ago.. You can get the filtration on one though.. for additional cost which prices it at or in some cases more than the Festool and then I'm not even sure it's actually certified as a hepa filter system..

Hooking up a exhaust hose might be the answer if you're not in the northern states where you would just be blowing the heat outside, LOL If you have a really sealed up new shop blowing all that air out you may need to create a air inlet.. I honestly think there is no "low cost" answer.. it's more about how much of this fine dust can you put up with.. I personally wear a filtered dust mask.. then do a full shop cleaning / dusting of that settled dust every couple months.. 

[Sycamore67]

There are many ways to help improve air quality.  I think it is important to do as much as possible to reduce the dust we breath.  Most of us are older and more vulnerable to the effects if fine dust. 

While it is nice to have a HEPA vacuum and an expensive air filter, one can do good with less expensive options.  A vacuum with a good quality filter and collecting dust at the source will be helpful.  Also, A box fan with a filter will work pretty well.