Scroll saw questions from beginner - blades and unusual materials.

[drive4]

Hello,

I'm new to scroll sawing. I have a specific application I'm looking for and I was wondering about blade choices as there are so many. My local distributor has Olson but it seems as though on this forum that pegas is preferred. I have a few questions. I will provide some background to help

 background

• my scroll saw is a  Delta 20 inch 40-560.
• the person who sold it to me had a blade installed, I don't know which one. It seemed to vibrate the workpiece ( 1/4 inch cedar, old-growth dry), and didn't cut well
•  The blade tightening mechanism ( tension lever) seems to hit the fork/ hold down. I am considering bending the lever arm angle so doesn't contact
•  I do have a bandsaw with a 1/4 inch blade  and would prefer to use that for some scenarios.

 needs

•  vibration: I want to minimize vibration if it all possible.
•  blades: to cut the following work
  •   1/16 , 1/4  and 1/8 of an inch material mostly.  softwoods and hardwoods.
  •  plastics such as lexon sheets or other thin sheets
  •  thin gauge aluminum sheets. I have a bandsaw and wondering if I'm better off just using that for aluminum

 

1.  which blades would you recommend to start for me?
2. is olson almost as good as pegas?I ask because I am located in Toronto and there is an Olson dealer nearby.
3.  is there a list of exotic materials ( not exotic woods) that a scroll saw can cut? I am a maker and like to try new stuff.
4.  Just to start off I don't want to get too many blades ( save some money)
5.  does cutting on the upstroke and downstroke cause more vibration? If so I would want to stay away from those blades of possible.
6.  how do I know I'm putting a good amount of blade tension
7. My saw has a two speed system. The guy who sold it to me said only use low speed. is this correct?

 thank you

Edited August 27, 2023 by drive4
Additional question

[drive4]

anyone?

[preprius]

 

As for machine vibration other village members have better knowledge.   I would not bend any arms until others tell you otherwise.

Saw speed :

the previous owner might have reasons to keep it slow.  Like vibration issues.  But he might just prefer slower speeds like I do.  

blades....

metal... flying dutchman (US brand), (Sawbird , Canadian brand)  Niqua mfg.   aluminum cutters #7 I had good result cutting aluminum.

Pegas blades I prefer.  MGT good for hard wood such as purple heart, hard maple, and black walnut.

But flying dutchman "Polar" series is good also. 

Skip blades sometimes cut better than polar. Also note wood grain direction comes into play. 

Olson has a series Precision ground that I used before switching to Pegas. 

I recently ordered blades from Garnet Hall , he is in Canada. Same manufacturer as Flying Dutchman. 

Also ordered Pegas from Artcrafters.  Denny posts here often and is very helpful. Lots of experience.

Blades should cut on downstroke. It pushes against table. Sometimes a blade gets put in upsidedown and it takes a lot of strength to hold the wood.  

All mfg have something called reverse blade.  this means 5 or 6 teeth on the bottom point up.  This to helps prevent tear out on bottom of wood.   Pegas MGT (modified geometry) has these reverse.  You need to look careful on how you install reverse blades. 

Blade Recommendation:

Get assortment. everyone told me to try equivalent to the following .... skip, double skip, super skip, MGT , don't forget spiral blades.  Once you decide on your goto blade you will still have some assortment for when something is not working.

Fretwork: some of the best fretwork artist use spiral blades.

Blade tension:  Get it tight. As tight as you can without the blade slipping out.  If you know notes you can do the the high "C" as a guide. 

The thinner the blade the proper tension is important. The tiny blades will twist easy. higher tension reduces the twist.  If the blades are breaking in the middle you might have too much tension. And you could be pushing wood too hard.  There is sweet spot on feedrate. This sweet spot is barely faster than what the blades feeds itself.  In otherwords slow and effortless. Of course most of us push the wood faster.

When precision is needed.  Bowls, inlay , intarsia:  keep the blade from being pushed left and right.  This side pressure changes the cut angle and makes pieces not fit well. Stay in the sweet spot of feed rate.  

In some cases your goto blade just seems weird, wont cut to the right but only left.  This I have seen when I have a different thickness of cutting as in I have not tried this thickness before.  I think the blades find a resonance and just won't co-operate. so change blades with 1 step thicker. 

I bought a lot of lower quality 2nd tier blades. They were cutting only in 1 direction. Don't cheap out on blades.  It is frustrating. 

Wood recommendations:

The tool should be able to cut most all wood.  When cutting turning blanks, 1.5"x1.5" keep the wood soft to med.   I tried apple branches at 1.5".  I don't recomment it. Purple heart should not go above 0.5".  I just cut 0.5" purple heart and aspen stacked.  It takes time. I was inlaying so precision angles are needed. 

Maple and black walnut is good to cut at 3/4".  MGT #1 for precision. #5 is good for most other projects. 

On really hard woods keep the wood thin  Less than 3/8"  It was highly recommended to me last week. I had 1/2" already so I wanted to use it. It is like watching mooshine freeze.  alchohol does not freeze. 

 

My starting point was late in 2020.  I don't want to manually do what a laser cutter can do.  So I like stuff thicker than 3/8".  Bowls require angle cuts lasers are not doing that yet.  Intarsia is beautiful. I also prefer to make funtional items but not always.  

Check out members galleries. 

@Dave Monk Monk's is inspiring.

@MarieC very creative,

@FrankEV brought color into portraits. 

@OCtoolguy functional pieces. He is a wizard at fixing scrollsaws. He also helped me get a great used hawk. The best move to keep me interested. Fighting cheap entry tool on cutting apple branches I almost stopped.

@Tbow388 bowl expert. Nice country series also.

Lots of others. wood carving, coin cutting,  Pattern makers are a great help also. 

And my project gallery, the only wearable scrollsawn cowboy hat so far.  Also a hollow football. 

This scrollsaw village helped me be less frustrated at the tools and has helped me on techniques. They have helped me every step of the way. 

Me. Mark Eason.

[kmmcrafts]

First off, Welcome to the Scroll Saw Village!

I have the same saw, it's a 16" saw not a 20". Good luck with parts if / when it arises because I restored mine 15 years ago and most parts back then was Obsolete. I  found a online seller that bought out a bunch of old Delta parts and he was able to hook me up with the needed parts. Doubt he has much of anything left but you can check them out and see at Mikestools.com .. Is your saw a type 2? Mine is a type 2 and was bought new by my father back in 1985 when my father retired just to give you an idea of the age of the saw.. 

The tension lever I would not modify.. as for the hold down foot.. I'm quite surprised it's still with the saw.. most people take it off and pitch it to the trash can as it's more of a problem than a benefit. That said there are some that do like / use them so I'm not saying you need to remove it as I guess it is supposed to be a safety device but I can tell you most all experienced scroll saw users have removed it and put it aside somewhere to never be found again, LOL. 

Is the saw bolted down to a solid stand or bench? That it the best way to reduce vibration.. The saw comes standard with rubber grommets to soften any vibrations and they help a ton, however with the age of the saw the rubber likely dry-rotted and is missing, Mine is that way and I've never found any direct replacements. Also there is a rubber piece that goes up under the upper arm blade tension stuff up there that is to reduce vibration.. also no longer available. 

As for blades creating vibration, They'll grab the board and lift it up off the table with each blade stroke IF you have the blade in upside down, Blade teeth should point downward.. some blades have a small number of reverse teeth at the bottom to give a cleaner cut on the bottom of the material.. these would be called reverse tooth blades.

While scroll saws can cut a wide range of materials, I would bet it'd be tough to cut plastics with this particular saw since it is a two speed saw. The problem is the saw speed creates heat and will melt the plastic back together behind your cut line.. Been there tried that with the two speed saw.. You'll likely need a variable speed saw where you can slow the balde way down. Another option is to sandwich the plastic between two pieces of thin 1/8" pieces of wood.. that may help enough to be successful but i'm not sure.. worth a try. 

Thin metal can be cut but again it probably works best if it's sandwiched between some wood. 

What blade to use is going to be very dependant on what material you're working with and also thickness of that particular material. Olson blades are decent blades if that is all you can get, I do believe there are Pegas and Flying Dutchman brand dealers in Canada though.. and also should note that buying small packs at a big box or hardware store gets quite pricey.. you may want to research some online dealers especially once you find a blade you like that works with the products you'll be making. If you buy them by a dozen at a time they might cost around $5-7 a dozen but a dealer will sell by what is called the "Gross" which is 12 dozen and some dealers will mix / match blade sizes. Dealers also sell sample packs where there is 3-6 blades of each size in certain teeth configurations to help newbies learn what blade works best for the projects they may make. I highly recommend those to a newbie..

A proper tensioned blade should give a high pitched ping sound when tensioned.. some folks say it should be a about a C note if you know a strings instrument, LOL I think this would really depend on how large of a blade you're using. Maybe reading the saws manual ( I haven't used my saw in a long time so I don't remember ) on how to properly adjust blade tension.. the manual will likely have some basic tensioning tips as a starting point. If you don't have a manual I believe the website I mentioned above for parts.. he used to have the manuals on the site for download.. If he doesn't I'm sure google searching for a manual with your model number would bring up a download.

As for saw speed, this again depends on what material you're cutting and also blade configuration.. as well as the comfort level in which you can saw and keep control of what you're cutting. I started out as a newbie on this two speed saw and I used low at first but as I gained more experience I wanted to cut faster so I started using the high speed. 

Best of luck with your newfound hobby and just have fun.. 

 

 

[Bill WIlson]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:22 PM, drive4 said:

Hello,

I'm new to scroll sawing. I have a specific application I'm looking for and I was wondering about blade choices as there are so many. My local distributor has Olson but it seems as though on this forum that pegas is preferred. I have a few questions. I will provide some background to help

 background

• my scroll saw is a  Delta 20 inch 40-560.
• the person who sold it to me had a blade installed, I don't know which one. It seemed to vibrate the workpiece ( 1/4 inch cedar, old-growth dry), and didn't cut well
•  The blade tightening mechanism ( tension lever) seems to hit the fork/ hold down. I am considering bending the lever arm angle so doesn't contact
  Remove the hold down.  You will find that it isn't all that necessary and more often just in the way.
•  I do have a bandsaw with a 1/4 inch blade  and would prefer to use that for some scenarios.

 needs

•  vibration: I want to minimize vibration if it all possible.
  Be sure to mount the saw securely onto a stable stand or bench.  Some vibration is common with most saws, at least within certain speed ranges (variable speed models).  Just need to find the "sweet spot".
•  blades: to cut the following work
  •   1/16 , 1/4  and 1/8 of an inch material mostly.  softwoods and hardwoods.
  •  plastics such as lexon sheets or other thin sheets
  •  thin gauge aluminum sheets. I have a bandsaw and wondering if I'm better off just using that for aluminum

 

1.  which blades would you recommend to start for me?
   A reverse tooth blade of a relatively small size is appropriate for thinner stock (as described above).  Brand choice is mostly a matter of personal preference.  Only one in this category that I would avoid is a Flying Dutchman 2/0 reverse tooth blade.  Notoriously hard to control.  Most other FD blades are fine and most other 2/0R blades are fine.
2. is olson almost as good as pegas?I ask because I am located in Toronto and there is an Olson dealer nearby.
   Olson is fine.  If that is more convenient for you, then go for it.  Most scrollers order from on-line sources.  Once you have a sense of what type of blade(s) you prefer, ordering on-line gives you more choices and likely better prices.
3.  is there a list of exotic materials ( not exotic woods) that a scroll saw can cut? I am a maker and like to try new stuff.
   Most  blade suppliers have descriptions of the types of materials each blade is recommended for, listed on their website.
4.  Just to start off I don't want to get too many blades ( save some money)
   I agree not to get carried away until you get some more experience, but remember that SS blades are a consumable.  Think of them like you would sandpaper.  They are relatively cheap, wear out quickly and work much better when fresh.
5.  does cutting on the upstroke and downstroke cause more vibration? If so I would want to stay away from those blades of possible.
   Most scroll saw blades are designed to cut on the downstroke.  Ther are some specialty blades that cut on both up & down stroke. Problems with vibration caused by the cutting motion is often a case of the wrong combination of blade (too big for material being cut), blade speed, feed rate (too fast, especially in tight turns) and material (large, aggressive blade, cutting thin material may tend to grab more).  It can be somewhat of a delicate balance, but with a little practice, you will quickly learn how all these factors work together.
6.  how do I know I'm putting a good amount of blade tension
   The most common way is the "ping" method.  Once the blade is tensioned, pluck it with your fingernail.  You should get a pretty high pitched "ping".  Some equate it to a musical note.  I'm relatively tone deaf, so I can't tell you what the pitch is, but bottom line, in most cases, more tension is better than not enough.
7. My saw has a two speed system. The guy who sold it to me said only use low speed. is this correct?
   That is totally up to you and your comfort level.  Once you learn how to control the saw using different blade and cutting different materials, you will likely become more comfortable running at higher speeds.  A two speed saw is kind of limiting.  Most scrollers prefer variable speed saws, but nothing wrong with a 2 speed.  Like mentioned above, it's a blend of, feed rate, blades and what is being cut that helps determine blade speed.  You only have 2 options, so use the one you are most comfortable with.

 thank you

 

[drive4]

This is a wealth of information. Thank you everyone.

 

I have some follow-ups

1. given that side wobbles are not desired, are zero clearance inserts recommended?
2.  I'm understanding  now that the improper use of the late selection for material  is the main cause of vibration.  is a uppercut causing zero vibration? I know this is not an issue for most people, but  It is something I highly desire. 
3.  do 100% reverse cut teeth because the  workpiece to move off the table slightly more vibrate?
4. for general-purpose, is it the mGT that's recommended?

I have some answers and recommendationsto preprius.

1.  the lack of available parts is a pain. I have used a local machine shop to rebuild some parts for other machinery. The cost might be prohibitive though.
2.  I have a type 2. Not sure what the differences are

 

[kmmcrafts]

28 minutes ago, drive4 said:

This is a wealth of information. Thank you everyone.

 

I have some follow-ups

1. given that side wobbles are not desired, are zero clearance inserts recommended?
2.  I'm understanding  now that the improper use of the late selection for material  is the main cause of vibration.  is a uppercut causing zero vibration? I know this is not an issue for most people, but  It is something I highly desire. 
3.  do 100% reverse cut teeth because the  workpiece to move off the table slightly more vibrate?
4. for general-purpose, is it the mGT that's recommended?

I have some answers and recommendationsto preprius.

1.  the lack of available parts is a pain. I have used a local machine shop to rebuild some parts for other machinery. The cost might be prohibitive though.
2.  I have a type 2. Not sure what the differences are

 

The difference in the type 1 vrs type 2 is the blade clamping system.. the type 2 should have what is referred to as a " quickset II blade chuck on the upper arm of the saw.. however you still need the special tool to change the blade in the lower arm.. The type 1 would have the same clamping system on the upper arm as the lower arm and required the special allen wrench tool that holds the chuck at the right position when tightening it down.. If in the wrong angle then you might get much more vibration etc.. and be breaking blades. 

[OCtoolguy]

46 minutes ago, drive4 said:

This is a wealth of information. Thank you everyone.

 

I have some follow-ups

1. given that side wobbles are not desired, are zero clearance inserts recommended?
2.  I'm understanding  now that the improper use of the late selection for material  is the main cause of vibration.  is a uppercut causing zero vibration? I know this is not an issue for most people, but  It is something I highly desire. 
3.  do 100% reverse cut teeth because the  workpiece to move off the table slightly more vibrate?
4. for general-purpose, is it the mGT that's recommended?

I have some answers and recommendationsto preprius.

1.  the lack of available parts is a pain. I have used a local machine shop to rebuild some parts for other machinery. The cost might be prohibitive though.
2.  I have a type 2. Not sure what the differences are

 

If I'm reading your statement correctly, you say you want a blade that cuts on the up stroke. My first question is why? The blades are designed to cut on the down stroke to help hold the wood down to the table. As said, there are some blades that have about 3/4" of up-cut teeth at the bottom to create a cleaner cut on the underside. Less fuzzies that way. I would suggest that if up cutting is essential you turn your piece over and cut from the bottom side. 

Best of luck with your newfound hobby and welcome to SSV. We are a friendly group and love seeing pictures of whatever you create. If/when you have questions, and there are no dumb questions, try to post a picture of what you might be in doubt about. 

[rash_powder]

On 8/27/2023 at 12:22 PM, drive4 said:

Hello,

I'm new to scroll sawing. I have a specific application I'm looking for and I was wondering about blade choices as there are so many. My local distributor has Olson but it seems as though on this forum that pegas is preferred. I have a few questions. I will provide some background to help

 background

• my scroll saw is a  Delta 20 inch 40-560.
• the person who sold it to me had a blade installed, I don't know which one. It seemed to vibrate the workpiece ( 1/4 inch cedar, old-growth dry), and didn't cut well
•  The blade tightening mechanism ( tension lever) seems to hit the fork/ hold down. I am considering bending the lever arm angle so doesn't contact
•  I do have a bandsaw with a 1/4 inch blade  and would prefer to use that for some scenarios.

 needs

•  vibration: I want to minimize vibration if it all possible.
•  blades: to cut the following work
  •   1/16 , 1/4  and 1/8 of an inch material mostly.  softwoods and hardwoods.
  •  plastics such as lexon sheets or other thin sheets
  •  thin gauge aluminum sheets. I have a bandsaw and wondering if I'm better off just using that for aluminum

 

1.  which blades would you recommend to start for me?
2. is olson almost as good as pegas?I ask because I am located in Toronto and there is an Olson dealer nearby.
3.  is there a list of exotic materials ( not exotic woods) that a scroll saw can cut? I am a maker and like to try new stuff.
4.  Just to start off I don't want to get too many blades ( save some money)
5.  does cutting on the upstroke and downstroke cause more vibration? If so I would want to stay away from those blades of possible.
6.  how do I know I'm putting a good amount of blade tension
7. My saw has a two speed system. The guy who sold it to me said only use low speed. is this correct?

 thank you

Vibrations - bolt the saw to your work table/bench/stand.  Make sure that stand is as rigid and heavy as practical.

Aluminum - I don't know how thin you are thinking, but personally i wouldn't use a scrollsaw for anything thicker than the craft stuff at stores like Michaels/Hobby Lobby.  Maybe 1/32" and less.  Thats just me considering the way aluminum galls so bad, cold welds, and loads saw teeth.  If you try it, I've found that the metal bandsaw we have at work cuts aluminum better at slow blade speeds and very very slow feed rates.  

Blades - Olson are good, I do most all of my work with them.  It will be personal preference for brand and size though.  A rough rule of thumb is you need at least 2 teeth in the material at all times.  1/8" wood, #3 and #5.  If you want to break stock down quickly a #7 will rip through it super fast.  Reverse tooth blades will leave a better finish on underside.  I like #3 and #5 for the 1/4" poplar i use most often.  Crown tooth blades can be flipped over to use the unused end if they don't break.  

Lexon/plastic - this will all cut like wood.  Slow blade speed to avoid heat, melting, dulling blades quickly, etc.  

Blade tension - personal preference again.  My Hegner recommends no more than 1 turn of adjuster bolt.  Its about a 1mm thread pitch.  

Exotic wood - look up safety precautions for what you are cutting.  some woods the dust can make you very sick.

Speed - personal preference and material.  some materials want a fast blade, others want a slow one.  It will also depend on blade choice.  Start slow and speed up if it seems like you can.  

cut stroke - scroll saws cut on the down stroke.  blades with a few reverse teeth at the bottom are available to help with tear out/fuzzies on the bottom of your work.  vibrations will almost always, in my experience, be from an inadequate support for the saw.  

I hope that helps some.  Its really going to be a lot of loose guides and then your personal preference for work flow/process.  Take notes on blade size, tooth count, type, brand, saw speed, and material and how things did/did not work.  After a few projects you will have enough info to make good decisions for your setup.  

 

 

[preprius]

correction,  polar blades are equivalent to skip.  

So when polar for some reason don't cut, change to something else.

sometimes switching to a smaller blade allows it to cut.  Example... I was cutting hard wood with P5, for 20 min.  I only cut maybe 1 inch. So I switched to P1 and made much better progress. 

I don't associate heavy vibration with blade type. I have only used 2 types of machines.

The hawk machine changes power and noise changes when hard grain is encountered.  It tries to keep the strokes per min from changing.

[kmmcrafts]

The Flying Dutchman "Ultra Reverse" has teeth in the up stroke position from one end of the blade all the way to the other end if you need a upstroke tooth for some odd reason.. The blade configuration if I remember correctly is 2 down facing teeth and then every third is a upstroke positioned tooth. This blade tooth configuration was designed to help clear out sawdust for a faster cleaner cut if I remember correctly.. I'm not aware of any other brand blade with this configuration.. They used to be my go to blade until Pegas came out with the "Modified Geometry" blade.. I still use the other blades from time to time but for the most part it's just the Pegas blades. I think Flying Dutchman also has some metal cutting blades.. not sure if the other brands have them or not? You might want to look at Mikesworkshop.com for Flying Dutchman brand blades. 

[Bill WIlson]

3 hours ago, drive4 said:

This is a wealth of information. Thank you everyone.

 

I have some follow-ups

1. given that side wobbles are not desired, are zero clearance inserts recommended?
   Zero clearance inserts are desirable, but not necessarily to prevent side wobbles.  Zero clearance will keep small parts from falling through the table and support delicate sections of fretwork, but side wobbles are best avoided by using proper technique.
2.  I'm understanding  now that the improper use of the late selection for material  is the main cause of vibration.  is a uppercut causing zero vibration? I know this is not an issue for most people, but  It is something I highly desire. 
   To use a blade that cuts primarily on the upstroke, if you could even find such a blade, is really going against established scrolling doctrine.  Olson makes a 2-way cut blade called a Crown Tooth.  It will cut in both directions at the same time.  I can't think of any reason why cutting primarily on the upstroke would be preferrable, but you could always install the blade upside down.
3.  do 100% reverse cut teeth because the  workpiece to move off the table slightly more vibrate?
   Cutting on the upstroke will cause the workpiece to want to lift off of the table, as you are cutting.  You could use the hold down bracket that I recommended earlier that you remove, but in order for it to adequately secure the workpiece to the table, the necessary down pressure would make it harder to move the workpiece around on the table.  Best way to prevent lifting is to use your fingers.  The dexterity and feel of your fingers will give you much more control.  That is one reason why cutting on the downstroke is preferred, because the blade is helping hold the wood down to the table.
4. for general-purpose, is it the mGT that's recommended?
   I'm not all that familiar with Pegas Modified Geometry blades, but they seem to be very popular amongst forum denizens.  The primary manufacturers of SS blades in N America are Flying Dutchman, Olson and Pegas.  To get details on tooth configuration, applications, sizes, etc. Google each one and pick a supplier (Bear Woods, Wooden Teddy Bear, Mikes Workshop, etc).  Their websites will have charts with all the pertinent information for comparison.

I have some answers and recommendationsto preprius.

1.  the lack of available parts is a pain. I have used a local machine shop to rebuild some parts for other machinery. The cost might be prohibitive though.
2.  I have a type 2. Not sure what the differences are

 

 

[Roberta Moreton]

Did you buy The Scroll Saw Workbook?  You might be able to check it out at your local library.  I always recommend it to my students.
Also look to You Tube for scrolling information.