EX-21 help needed - Urgent

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah I hear you on that.. I was greatly disappointed with my EX21 within the first month I had it..  at the time there was no knowledge of the China made saw.. I owned the thing tweaking things constantly.. then when the info started hitting the internet about the China made one I had to go out to look at my tag... sure enough.. LOL.. I know yours is not the China version.. and I would have expected it to go much longer than it had.. If I remember correctly you got yours just before they stopped making the "good ones" which was when I got mine too.. 2017.. Two rebuilds later and now the electronics is acting up... Think it's just the speed switch itself cause if I even lightly touch it it almost stops the saw.. 505 hours on the clock of mine.. Probably just buy the switch and solder it on after I get through the holidays..  had to do that with a different saw a few years ago..

The sad thing is.. I got that $100 35 year old Hawk 220VS and put another $100 into a couple worn tension cam parts and I ran that saw trouble free for 300 hours before I sold it for $250 and got my new one.. which has around 475 trouble free hours.. I'm not knocking these saws.. but the issues I had with my Dewalt.. rebuilding it twice and similar issues to the EX that I'm having now.. I'm pretty skeptical to pay nearly $1000 for a Pegas or anything similar when a new hawk can be had for about $200 more.. 

I think the companies making these are using some real cheap bearings and probably barely any grease.. even though.. I put in my own high end synthetic grease on these saws when I rebuilt them.. so maybe just crap bearings.. I don't remember the ratio that Ray gave me but he said to me that the quality of the link arm assemblies are hit or miss.. I wanna say he was saying about every 3rd one he sells is actually a good one and last a few years.. That to me wasn't too promising to hear since he gets these from the same factory that makes the Seyco and Pegas saws.. All that said.. the link arm parts replaces all the bearings and comes fully assembled.. not too expensive compared to a new saw.. and not too bad of a job to change..   

[BadBob]

I changed my link arm assembly a few years ago to fix a knock issue. I bought my used, and it had already been ridden hard. I used it for a couple of years before the problems showed up. I replaced the entire assembly for the speed on Ray's recommendation. The instructions that came with mine were not very good. A crowfoot wrench will come in handy.

I would not trade my EX21 for a Hawk, or any other style saw, even if I had to rebuild it every few years.

Edited December 5, 2023 by BadBob

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah, I didn't use the instructions at all.. I had already had it completely apart prior to replacing the assembly trying to just add grease to by some time..

[Bill WIlson]

The cheap bearing issue is pretty common.  I work for a manufacturer and I hear guys complain all the time about the cheap bearings we put in things and we're not alone.  Same thing goes for most things you buy with bearings.  Problem is, good ones are stupid expensive and sometimes hard to get.  

[kmmcrafts]

If they put hour meters on saws.. I'd say the DeWalt and EX type saws you'd be looking at needing a rebuild around 250 - 350 hours.. That has been my experience.. I do around 250 - 350 hours a year on my saws but I have 5 different saws to rotate around to, LOL.. Scott ( Iggy ) replaces a DeWalt every year to one and a half years which I feel is pretty consistent to my conclusion of the 250 -350 hours.. for the amount of work he does every year.. 

IF a person didn't want to spend money replacing that drive link every couple years and had some down time to take the saw apart and grease all those bearings every 150 - 200 hours you could probably get by for quite a long time on the drive link. But personally I feel like for the amount of work and time it takes to clean up the old bearings sleeves etc and the whole assembly is only around $120.. just run it until it starts making noise and replace the assembly.. Having an hour meter and knowing this info.. if you're going into the busy holiday season with close to 250 hours.. you may just buy the part and have it on hand.. or a backup saw etc.. On a rare occasion one might last much longer than that.. But so far that has been my experience.. for whatever that info might be worth to anyone..

[rafairchild2]

One of these days, I might just buy a PEGAS 30" and relegate my Excal 21" as my backup/ alternate.  I am working on a non-profit venture, that will be my full retirement activity.  For now, it will be my 2nd career. I'll need to upgrade some of my equipment, but like Kevin, I am going to have backups.

[Bill WIlson]

The thing is, so many of these saws use the parallel link design now.  I suspect most of the parts are common between brands, so unless one goes with a Hawk or Hegner, you probably aren't getting away without this sort of problem, at some point.

I had my Dewalt for a lot of years and never replaced anything other than the blade clamps.  As far as I know, it's still running strong now at over 20 years old.  I'm a hobbiest, so my saws don't get used hard.  I have no idea how many hours I put on a saw in a year, on average.  No where near as many as those who use theirs for commercial ventures.

[rafairchild2]

I have to wonder too about the speed one runs their saw at and how long it lasts.  I tend to use lower speeds vs. people who say they run them full-tilt all the time.  Dust, heat, and friction at higher speeds I would think lends to accelerated wear. Add to that proper PM and cleaning.

[BadBob]

Speed has to make a difference. When I got my first variable speed saw, I ran it at full speed all the time. That was what I was used to. Now, I run it at the speed that seems to work best for what I am cutting.

[kmmcrafts]

5 hours ago, rafairchild2 said:

I have to wonder too about the speed one runs their saw at and how long it lasts.  I tend to use lower speeds vs. people who say they run them full-tilt all the time.  Dust, heat, and friction at higher speeds I would think lends to accelerated wear. Add to that proper PM and cleaning.

It could be speed, I don't know.. But what I find when I take these saws apart is lack of grease.. and sometimes it looks as though there was never any grease and other times it looks like the grease turned into a sticky thick paste.. This is usually in the bearings at the front lower parts.. which I believe the fine wood dust as absorbed any moisture in the grease and turned it into that thick sticky paste that is no longer really being a lubricant.. 

When I rebuilt my DeWalt the second time I put in some high quality bearings ( about double the price of any others ) and I used a high quality synthetic grease.. The saw did last a lot longer.. however taking it apart does find that the grease is just drying out..

I would say that IF there was a easy way to grease these saws regularly they'd last just like a Hawk or Hegner.. The issue is nobody wants to take it apart just to do a grease job on it.. Hawk and Hegners have everything out in the open and you just place a few drops of light oil every 10 or 20 hours per manufacture... If you don't oil a Hegner they also wear out bearings.. I tend to think it's more about lack of lube than anything.. and what happens is you have several pivot points on these saws.. If one of these points starts getting stiff and not moving freely it's putting stress on all the other points and especially that main point at the back of the saw.. that all transfers throughout the saw..

[NC Scroller]

There is a reason in the business world that equipment is depreciated and it is not just for taxes.  Every piece of equipment has a usable life.  This goes from the simplest to multiple million dollars equipment.  Sure that life can be extended by regular maintenance but after so many hours and or so many widgets the company is better of replacing rather than repairing.  I know it is a bitter pill for someone doing this for a hobby but it is something we all have to face. I think Kevin is probably close with his 250 hour estimate but for a hobbyist like many of us that translates into 3-4 years.
 

 

[Sycamore67]

As a hobby guy, I would be very unhappy if my scrollsaw only lasted 3-4 years.  To me, 250 hours is just unacceptable.    I expect my tools to last 20 years with reasonable maintenance.  I know my old Hegner lasted more than 20 years and expect my current one to outlast me.  Of course, the Hegner has only bushings which are very easy to oil. I would like to hear from anyone who has had to replace the bushings.

[Scrappile]

15 minutes ago, Sycamore67 said:

As a hobby guy, I would be very unhappy if my scrollsaw only lasted 3-4 years.  To me, 250 hours is just unacceptable.    I expect my tools to last 20 years with reasonable maintenance.  I know my old Hegner lasted more than 20 years and expect my current one to outlast me.  Of course, the Hegner has only bushings which are very easy to oil. I would like to hear from anyone who has had to replace the bushings.

Ha, my Hegner is 13 years old.. I keep thinking maybe I should change the bushings or something.  But I really believe, do not fix what is not broken.   If I had had to replace a cheaper saw every 3 - 4 years.. I could have had a Hegner for cheaper.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Scrappile

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Sycamore67 said:

I would like to hear from anyone who has had to replace the bushings.

 

[kmmcrafts]

I'm kinda thinking a weekend hobbyist saw would last longer than 3-4 years.. Really a lot of factors come into play.. such as the type of projects.. I mostly cut fretwork type projects ( Christmas Ornaments, Clocks etc. ).. so you set at a saw for 40 hours but the saw only has 5-10 hours run time due to stopping to cut the next section out and all that entails to that.. A person doing puzzles have very few if any inside cuts.. you set at the saw to make the puzzle for 30 minutes the saw is running most of that 30 minutes.. You'd be really surprised how much time difference there is on the saw when doing fretwork vrs puzzles etc.. I can spend 40 hours a week in the shop but much of it is sanding and prep work for the next project..  many times I'm lucky to get 5 hours on the clock of the saw.. even though I worked out there all week.. LOL other times I can put 5 hours in one day if doing puzzles or similar.. 

 

[Phantom Scroller]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:15 PM, Bill WIlson said:

The hold down arm is but a distant memory. 

But thanks for the response. 

Yep it's the first thing to go on mine but I left the arm on it was bolted to and it came loose ah well you learn how ever old you are.  It's gone nowRoly

[BadBob]

Every machine that has moving parts wears with use. Parts will need to be replaced from time to time. How often these parts need to be replaced depends on many factors. Just because the bearings wear out does not mean something is wrong with the saw. All it means is that the bearings are a consumable part that must be replaced periodically. I bought my EX-21 used; it had been used hard, and about two years after I bought it, the bearings started to go. I replaced the whole drive link assembly. I can keep doing this for many years as long as parts are available. The important thing is that parts and support are available.

 

[Scrappile]

I think the 3D cutting is probably the harded cutting for a scroll saw.  I like to do it.  I just finished cutting 4 each of MR and MS Kringle napkin rings.  I cut them in blanks of 1.5" BB plywood.  Each one tool me an average of 40 minutes to cut.  It really worked my saw.  Of the blades I have I found the #5 Pegas Skip worked the best... Used about 3 blades per piece. Maybe a #7 blade would have been better, not sure.

[kmmcrafts]

5 hours ago, BadBob said:

Every machine that has moving parts wears with use. Parts will need to be replaced from time to time. How often these parts need to be replaced depends on many factors. Just because the bearings wear out does not mean something is wrong with the saw. All it means is that the bearings are a consumable part that must be replaced periodically. I bought my EX-21 used; it had been used hard, and about two years after I bought it, the bearings started to go. I replaced the whole drive link assembly. I can keep doing this for many years as long as parts are available. The important thing is that parts and support are available.

 

It'd be really nice to be able to replace just the individual parts needed at a much lower cost rather than throwing out several good bearings because one $10 bearing went bad.. That is one of my bigger complaints about the link arm saws that I personally have.. The bearings can be sourced but the inner sleeve I have not been able to find a reasonable priced source.. Rolf run into the same thing with his rebuild.. Instead of a $120 assembly we could just buy the couple of bearings that are the ones prone to be worn and are the main issue.. The nice thing about some of the other saws... you just go to the local hardware and pick up what would be a very common bearing or bushing for around $10.. No waiting for shipping to bring your parts.. 

[BadBob]

39 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

It'd be really nice to be able to replace just the individual parts needed at a much lower cost rather than throwing out several good bearings because one $10 bearing went bad.. That is one of my bigger complaints about the link arm saws that I personally have.. The bearings can be sourced but the inner sleeve I have not been able to find a reasonable priced source.. Rolf run into the same thing with his rebuild.. Instead of a $120 assembly we could just buy the couple of bearings that are the ones prone to be worn and are the main issue.. The nice thing about some of the other saws... you just go to the local hardware and pick up what would be a very common bearing or bushing for around $10.. No waiting for shipping to bring your parts.. 

Yes,  I would much prefer that we could replace the bearings.

[Wichman]

A note to isolating a bad bearing: use a mechanics stethoscope, alternately use a 24" piece of 1 x 2 lumber. you can place one end of the 1 x 2 against the bearing and the other end close to your ear, you will be able to hear the rumbling of a bad bearing.

A second method is to use a non contact thermometer. Run the machine for a few minutes then turn the machine off and use the thermometer to check the bearing temps. A hot bearing is a bad bearing; hot is 140 degrees or more. significantly hotter than the other bearing is suspect .   

[BadBob]

Mechanics stethoscopes are great tools, and they don't cost much.

An excellent tip for the use of a noncontact thermometer and yet another use for one.

[Bill WIlson]

Good news!  The EX-21 is back to being operational and purring like a kitten again. 

I received the drive link assembly last night and spent a couple hours this afternoon installing it.  Even though I'm not the greatest at taking things apart and getting them back together, this went pretty smoothly.  I'm back in business and have been sawing for the past half hour so.  I'm relieved, to say the least.  I even called Ray to let him know & thank him again for his help.  Well, back to the saw.  Let's call this case closed.

[kmmcrafts]

Did you happen to find anything obvious wrong with the old drive link? Just curious as to what the actual problem might have been.. especially for it to all of a sudden start banging.. Though, I will say that many times equipment gradually start getting louder or making a slight noise that goes unnoticed until it lets loose, and wakes us up saying we have a problem, LOL..

Anyway, glad to hear it's back up and running great..

[Bill WIlson]

Nothing obvious.  I presume it's a bad bearing at one of the pivot points, but no idea which one.