BadBob Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I've seen many posts over the years about finishes and tried all sorts of things. I watched this yesterday and thought it might be of interest. jollyred and OCtoolguy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill WIlson Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I saw that video the other day. I remember reading similar comments on woodworking forums years ago. If I recall correctly either Bob Flexner or Jeff Jewitt (or both) describe it in their respective books on finishing, which may be where the critique originated. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Interesting video, Thanks for sharing it. This info has been around way before I first got into woodworking back in 2004-5 and my father used to make his own stuff including stains back in the 1980's and probably prior to that ( I just remember seeing him doing it then )... and I remember reading about when they stop making Danish oil for a short time how folks were talking about how to make your own.. I've made a lot of my own finishes and wax's too.. One has to decide what works best for them and their needs. I made my own Danish oil and yes it's definitely cheaper to make yourself.. However convenience also plays a big roll in why I still buy these expensive finishes too.. I suppose if I was a big furniture maker and going through gallons of finish a year then yes making it makes more sense. Just finishing hundreds of ornaments a year and a few puzzles and clocks I go through about 2 gallon of Danish oil.. Same for spray finishing topcoats.. One can buy the pint, quart, gallon, or 5 gallon containers and spray equipment and save a ton of money if you use enough of it. My laser ornaments I make I use top coat rather than Danish oil.. Also anything I paint gets top coat rather than dipped in Danish oil. I mostly only do small batches at a time... so gathering up the spray gun and setting things up to spray 10 - 20 ornaments using around 1 - 2 oz of spray isn't worth the effort not to mention cleanup for the savings of just grabbing that spray can and being done with it in a short time.. I can see where spraying a large piece of furniture or a huge production line where savings could be very worth it. At the end of the day everyone has to do what works best for them.. I just see making your own finish in the scroll sawing world a bit overkill for no more product most of us make.. Yes there are some certain situations where it works well for some. Anyway good info for some and thanks for sharing it. TAIrving, danny and OCtoolguy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe W. Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Informative video. Thanks. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBob Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 53 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said: I saw that video the other day. I remember reading similar comments on woodworking forums years ago. If I recall correctly either Bob Flexner or Jeff Jewitt (or both) describe it in their respective books on finishing, which may be where the critique originated. I have known about this for years preweb and Bob Flexner is probably where I got it from. I used to subscribe to an industry news magazine for woodworking, and he had a regular column there that I always read. I also have his books. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I watched the video and he is not saying anything new that has not been said many years ago. he is right about the advertising but that can be said about any product ever sold. Words are used to try to distinguish your product from others. That is called sales marketing. Come on we all do it with our products we make. Hand made , one of a kind, and so on. Making your own finishes is something that has been done since the start of woodworking. Nothing wrong with that. But also there is a thing and again it applies to all products ever sold especially today. Ask the price that you think you can get and adjust from there. You ask why have finish product prices been rising? The factors are supply and demand, ingredient availability, and environmental laws. All play a factor. years ago those were not real players in the world of finishes. have to say Formbys brand was one of the best wipe on finishes used. I still have a few bottles. He is right in the fact most are watered down but that plays well for convince and also penetration into wood fibers so not a bad thing. I won't go into which brand is better because they are basically all the same with the fact of tweaking a little here or there. So buy what you want. As far as making your own, I have never and have no intentions to ever do that and waste my time mixing things when companies professionally do it for me with exact measurements. Savings, what a couple pennies. You make lose that in mixing time and now extra storage space and containers. So there goes the profits. As far as my all time favorite finish is and always will be Watco Danish oil. I would maybe go through about 2 gals of it per year but my projects were rather large. I used both the dipping method and also the brush on flooding method because the projects were too large to always dip. But would always catch runoff in clean container and just pour back in can after use. used that method till this day. Works well. Danish oil has all the ingredients to put a beautiful finish on any woodworking project. I defy anyone to show me something different. All part of woodworking. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I take the easy way out and my finishes show it. I use Deft lacquer. Staining is another thing I am not good at, but I do like the General gel stains. MarieC and OCtoolguy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill WIlson Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I think the people who would most benefit from the info in that video are not necessarily those who make products to sell. As Kevin suggested, the cost benefit may not be there for the pro woodworker. OTOH, hobbiests who very likely have a shelf or cabinet full of various finishing products that they've accumulated over the years, may well save a little $$ by mixing their own, with stuff they already have vs buying another expensive can of finish and adding it to their collection. I don't think there is anything special about commercially available blends. Mixing your own doesn't require a degree in chemistry. It's been done by hobbiests for years. I think the biggest value of the video is to enlighten those who think they are getting something specific or special in their name brand blended finish to the fact that there is a lot of hype and mis-information out there, carefully wordsmithed as product names and descriptions. Woodworkers are always chasing the holy grail of that perfect finish and if a product isn't all it implies it is, then we should be aware of it. If one knows all of that and still chooses to buy the commercial blend, that's their right. If they perceive a benefit and are happy with the product, then no harm no foul. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 36 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said: I think the people who would most benefit from the info in that video are not necessarily those who make products to sell. As Kevin suggested, the cost benefit may not be there for the pro woodworker. OTOH, hobbiests who very likely have a shelf or cabinet full of various finishing products that they've accumulated over the years, may well save a little $$ by mixing their own, with stuff they already have vs buying another expensive can of finish and adding it to their collection. I don't think there is anything special about commercially available blends. Mixing your own doesn't require a degree in chemistry. It's been done by hobbiests for years. I think the biggest value of the video is to enlighten those who think they are getting something specific or special in their name brand blended finish to the fact that there is a lot of hype and mis-information out there, carefully wordsmithed as product names and descriptions. Woodworkers are always chasing the holy grail of that perfect finish and if a product isn't all it implies it is, then we should be aware of it. If one knows all of that and still chooses to buy the commercial blend, that's their right. If they perceive a benefit and are happy with the product, then no harm no foul. But..... There is always one ingredient that does not get talked about that is very important in making your own is DRIERS. Just because you mix stuff together it also needs some driers to help the product flow out as well as dry properly or it can linger for days. People do not have those laying around in their bins often. OCtoolguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wichman Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 It's January and time for Stumpy's annual discourse on mixing your own finish, this is the 4 or 5th time he's had a "new" video on the subject. I don't mind Stumpy too much, but his focus is on general woodworking and not scroll saw stuff ( he hasn't talked about SS's in years). The wipe on finishes may work well for the thinner portraits that are popular now, but thicker material ( 1/2" or more ) make getting the finish in the smaller frets difficult, that's generally why I thin my finish liquids by half; so the finish will flow into the small frets, since I don't want a lot of different finishes floating around the shop, I use the same finish for most of my work. OCtoolguy and kmmcrafts 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) Not ALL Watco Danish oils are the same.. I think most folks don't know this but there are two different viscosity mixes of the stuff.. Both cans look identical and unless you read the back label many wouldn't know this.. One has a VOC of 350 and the other is ( I think 275 ).. can't remember now but one is thicker meaning less solvent... which also gives the wood a bit more deeper rich sheen to it.. May have more poly or oil? I don't know the mix and doubtful anyone does.. I just know I've used both and one is thicker.. one dries much faster than the other too.. JT brings up a good point about the added driers.. I mixed the good ol 50/50 BLO that many talk so much about years ago.. But it stinks to high heaven for quite some time.. as opposed to the commercial stuff. Two different prices and two different data sheets.. for the Watco Danish oil.. More expensive one... https://www.homedepot.com/p/Watco-1-Gallon-Danish-Oil-in-Natural-2-Pack-65731/202067183 Less Expensive one... https://www.homedepot.com/p/Watco-1-Gallon-Danish-Oil-in-Natural-2-Pack-65732/202067184 Read the Data sheets.. One actaully shows VOC 350 in the title.. the other just says Danish oil, LOL Edited January 4 by kmmcrafts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill WIlson Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said: But..... There is always one ingredient that does not get talked about that is very important in making your own is DRIERS. Just because you mix stuff together it also needs some driers to help the product flow out as well as dry properly or it can linger for days. People do not have those laying around in their bins often. But most oil based products contain driers themselves, don't they? Pure tung oil being a notable exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I don't think mixing up your own is all that crucial to be exact.. especially when your mixing up a gallon.. certainly not as important as mixing paint in the autobody industry when you're mixing just 4oz to paint a fender.. one drop off makes a huge difference in the color match on mixing 4oz compared to mixing a gallon to paint the whole car.. For the most part I use Natural color Danish oil so color isn't a huge issue.. Just that mixing more oil than thinners makes the gain maybe pop a little different.. But wood is various colors anyway and many times you can't get too boards with the exact same grain colors.. LOL.. I'm not sure what they would add in for driers for these finishes.. I can say they do usually dry faster than the stuff I've made myself.. however I may have mixed with more or less thinners.. Typically thinners is what evaporates faster.. But there may be other drier's in the mix too.. looking at the data sheet from the links I posted from HD above they have quite a lot more than just 1 oil and thinners in the mix.. JTTHECLOCKMAN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, Bill WIlson said: But most oil based products contain driers themselves, don't they? Pure tung oil being a notable exception. Not if you are buying pure oils. If you are buying wipe on oils then why make your own. Wasting your time in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Kevin there are more than 2. Different states have different regulations on the VOC limits. On a Home Depot shelf you can find different states mixtures. The higher the VOC the better the product but more dangerous for breathing. The voc is a combination of materials to make the product spread easier as well as penetrate woods easier in stains. They play an important roll. Again when you mix your own finishes you are not adding the correct ingredients to make a product that is as efficient as what is mass produced. Will it work, sure because all oil will penetrate wood fibers. But now that product could be blotchy, could take longer to dry, could be hazardous to breathe. Do as you wish. Work as safely as possible. Paint and stain finishes are being worked on all the time to lower the VOC to protect the air. That is why waterbased finishes have been developed. kmmcrafts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Yeah, I don't mix my own.. I did it once some years ago and the hassle of finding a safe container to mix all the products up was enough hassle.. also not really knowing what is in the product isn't super smart as a business.. Now finishes are likely a very low probability of someone having some sort of health or safety issue, especially when they are fully cured... but as a business you should be able to provide a data sheet for your products used to make the crafts you sell.. Yeah I suppose one could provide a data sheet for each product they used to make their own mix.. There is currently a big uproar on a etsy sellers forum page about a customer ( whom is also a seller ) had purchased a dream catcher and the listing title showed for a child's room wall hanging.. however the string broke that had beads on it.. The child is 10 years old and decided to make a necklace out of it but while making the necklace he had a long bead in his mouth or lips to hold it while threading another bead.. unfortunately it went in his mouth and he choked.. the good part is he broke it free from choking him but in the process swallowed it. He has some rare blood clotting disease that was just diagnosed as well as some other stuff.. so they don't want to do surgery if they don't need to however they need to know what material the bead is.. Long story short... the customer asked the seller what the beads are and she claimed the seller where she bought it from advertised it as authentic turquoise which is toxic.. but nobody knows for sure.. so it's a big mess.. IF you are a seller you should know what is in the product your selling period.. Yes the kid is old enough to know not to put things in their mouth but you also have to remember we now have to put warning stickers on adult products like car batteries to warn you not to drink the acid.. or have a muffler guard on a lawn mower that says Hot.. You cannot be too careful about knowing what's in the products we use to make our crafts when you have to put warning labels on adult products in my opinion, LOL And YES, I do know that having an issue over a finish type is a long shot but in this day and age you almost have to be more careful of knowing what is in the products you make and sell.. Point is.. I'm way more comfortable just buying my commercial made finishes for my crafts where there is a data sheet for all the info one might ever need.. BTW: The customer isn't trying to sue.. it's not about that.. it's trying to know if the bead is going to be harmful to the child.. The hospital / doctors want to know so they know whether to remove it or not.. surgery is dangerous to him with his blood clotting disease he has.. Unfortunately going through several sellers to find out what the bead actually is takes a lot of time for responses etc.. He'll probably pass it through before they find out anything unfortunate situation for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBob Posted January 5 Author Report Share Posted January 5 I knew this would open a can of worms. jerry walters, kmmcrafts and MarieC 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sycamore67 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Back to the original question !! I really like Danish Oil for the look but it takes a long time to dry. I probably use shellac most of the time as it dries quickly. I use it for 2 coats by brush and spray can fir last coat. MarieC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 That is a sad situation that Kevin brought up and is one reason I do not make toys for kids. Just not worth the anxiety of what if. The OP and his video opens a age long practice that all the person in the video is pointing out and that is advertising methods. There is nothing wrong with it and buyer beware. This applies to that bag of chips you buy and the contents and size of packaging and so forth. So no ground breaking info there. Now another long and I mean long term discussion that has to do with finishes that gets debated till the cows come home is how safe is so called food safe finishes. There is the theory out there that when all finishes are dried and CURED are food safe. But are they. Look at the ingredients that go into making them. Where did the ingredients go that now make them food safe? Because they are now solid or attached to wood fibers makes them safe? What if you use a cutting board that has finishes on them and you cut into those fibers. You see many people making fancy cutting boards with exotic woods segmented. Then they use say a mineral oil on it How many people are allergic to mineral oil? How many people are allergic to exotic woods. heck there are people allergic to walnut wood dust. And the list goes on. Yes know what is in the product you are making but as with big companies you can not protect everyone. Common sense has to play a roll and unfortunately we have become a sue first nation . I wish the person in Kevin's story a speedy recovery and a happy outcome. But to take this back to finishing and making your own concoctions, be aware of what you are mixing. Those big companies have science behind them and mixing amounts needed to produce a product. We all fall in love with a favorite finish for various reasons. that is fine and hope you get the results YOU are looking for but it is not for everyone. Thus the amount of different products on the market. kmmcrafts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessL Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 I'll just say that my go to is Danish oil. I recently started using the Walnut Danish oil on a few projects and Love it!! But the good ole regular Danish oil is my favorite. I use it for dipping and wipe on/off. kmmcrafts and JTTHECLOCKMAN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said: That is a sad situation that Kevin brought up and is one reason I do not make toys for kids. Just not worth the anxiety of what if. The OP and his video opens a age long practice that all the person in the video is pointing out and that is advertising methods. There is nothing wrong with it and buyer beware. This applies to that bag of chips you buy and the contents and size of packaging and so forth. So no ground breaking info there. Now another long and I mean long term discussion that has to do with finishes that gets debated till the cows come home is how safe is so called food safe finishes. There is the theory out there that when all finishes are dried and CURED are food safe. But are they. Look at the ingredients that go into making them. Where did the ingredients go that now make them food safe? Because they are now solid or attached to wood fibers makes them safe? What if you use a cutting board that has finishes on them and you cut into those fibers. You see many people making fancy cutting boards with exotic woods segmented. Then they use say a mineral oil on it How many people are allergic to mineral oil? How many people are allergic to exotic woods. heck there are people allergic to walnut wood dust. And the list goes on. Yes know what is in the product you are making but as with big companies you can not protect everyone. Common sense has to play a roll and unfortunately we have become a sue first nation . I wish the person in Kevin's story a speedy recovery and a happy outcome. But to take this back to finishing and making your own concoctions, be aware of what you are mixing. Those big companies have science behind them and mixing amounts needed to produce a product. We all fall in love with a favorite finish for various reasons. that is fine and hope you get the results YOU are looking for but it is not for everyone. Thus the amount of different products on the market. Exactly why I also don't make toys for kids.. we all know the first thing kids do it put stuff in their mouth.. I see some sellers selling "unfinished" because of this.. however then all the saliva soaks into the wood and becomes a bacteria magnet, LOL As for cutting boards.. I have made and sold a few of them.. For them.. I also purchase commercial finishes so there is a data sheet.https://www.amazon.com/Watco-241758-Butcher-Block-Finish/dp/B000VITOT4/ref=asc_df_B000VITOT4/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198071503086&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5180649152188685668&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017308&hvtargid=pla-353531777652&psc=1&mcid=b6033a1f799136aa8257d308cebf7ebf&gclid=CjwKCAiA7t6sBhAiEiwAsaieYhSDYQW5qKTEL-VjkPr1P6D71Ewc3QeI6eqzreZzm-7OwXYJVGlSmRoCAM8QAvD_BwE Most sellers use mineral oil.. some use mineral oil and bees wax.. I've seen some brave folks using walnut oil, LOL that doesn't sound too smart in my opinion because of many nut allergies out there. Regardless, all sellers should be aware of what is used to make the things they sell and have data sheets available if the need arises. Yet you go to these dollar stores and other store and can buy wood cutting boards no listing of what was used as a finish and made in China stickers on the package... Lots of the laser folks buy these and engrave messages on them.. not only is this a recipe for a disaster for the you and the customer as you have no idea what finish is on it.. the fumes from the laser could be very toxic because you don't know what finish you're burning, LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTTHECLOCKMAN Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said: Exactly why I also don't make toys for kids.. we all know the first thing kids do it put stuff in their mouth.. I see some sellers selling "unfinished" because of this.. however then all the saliva soaks into the wood and becomes a bacteria magnet, LOL As for cutting boards.. I have made and sold a few of them.. For them.. I also purchase commercial finishes so there is a data sheet.https://www.amazon.com/Watco-241758-Butcher-Block-Finish/dp/B000VITOT4/ref=asc_df_B000VITOT4/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198071503086&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5180649152188685668&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017308&hvtargid=pla-353531777652&psc=1&mcid=b6033a1f799136aa8257d308cebf7ebf&gclid=CjwKCAiA7t6sBhAiEiwAsaieYhSDYQW5qKTEL-VjkPr1P6D71Ewc3QeI6eqzreZzm-7OwXYJVGlSmRoCAM8QAvD_BwE Most sellers use mineral oil.. some use mineral oil and bees wax.. I've seen some brave folks using walnut oil, LOL that doesn't sound too smart in my opinion because of many nut allergies out there. Regardless, all sellers should be aware of what is used to make the things they sell and have data sheets available if the need arises. Yet you go to these dollar stores and other store and can buy wood cutting boards no listing of what was used as a finish and made in China stickers on the package... Lots of the laser folks buy these and engrave messages on them.. not only is this a recipe for a disaster for the you and the customer as you have no idea what finish is on it.. the fumes from the laser could be very toxic because you don't know what finish you're burning, LOL There is another angle that I never thought of because I do not engrave or use a laser, but these things are important factors not only working in a shop but if you are or plan on going down that avenue of selling things. Big business have capital to back them up and lawyers. We the small guy have to be extra careful. I use to make a fruit bowls and banana rack combo that I sold many of back in the day. Can not remember who made the pattern but clones followed for sure. I at that time used nothing but Behlen's Salad Bowl finish. If I were making those baskets today I would still use it. I dug as deep at the time as I could and asking on forums what is the safest finish and of course the old debate kept arising and to this date there is proof for both sides. As I said even mineral oil is a touchy finish and people use wax because the argument is well apples and other fruit is protected with it. But is it the same stuff? But when I started making these baskets again many years ago, my line to customers always was if you plan on putting fruits or breads or other eatables in them to use a doily to seperate from the wood. Now the baskets were dipped in one coat of Danish oil and left to dry. But I also sold wood fruit and also used props such as fake rolls and things to give ideas to people where they can go to Hobby Lobby and buy them. https://www.shellac.net/SaladBowl.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieC Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 I am with @Scrappile. I have always used Deft spray lacquer on all my art pieces. Easy peasy and dries pretty much clear and super fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Moreton Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 I buy Danish oil. It comes natural, walnut, honey oak, Cherry..I use the different colors to tint my projects. I do know I could make it. I do not want the hassle. I don’t usually put poly on it although I know can put poly on it as a top coat after it sets for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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