Motor in rear

[rjweb]

I was on another forum and a poster said that the scroll saws with the motor in the rear is why they have trouble with the linkage because of the stress on them, compared to like the hegner witch the motor is forward, what are your thoughts on this theory,  RJ

[Scrappile]

 I think it has more to do with what the linkage is made of and how robust it is.  But I am not and engineer.

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah, I'm no engineer either but most all the saws with the motor in the rear that I know of also have a very complex contraption consisting of flimsy metal arms / rods with several pivot points.. Do they run smoother throughout the whole range on the speed dial.. Yes.. they have little short arms at the front of the saw that all that complex linkage connects too. Most these type saws have anywhere from 14 - 20 small bearings.. A lot of pivot points..

Saws like the Hawk and Hegner have anywhere from 4 - 6 bearings.. but they also have a lot of mass moving, especially with those large 26" saws.. that moving mass is going to have some harmonic spots where vibration is inevitable at certain speeds.. But very little to go wrong.. no flimsy rods and way less pivot points. 

 

[Bill WIlson]

The double parallel link design does incorporate a lot of pivot points that are subject to wear.  Despite this, it appears to be the most dominant and popular design in scroll saws today.  The question is, does this design offer other enough benefits to make it more attractive to users, such that they are willing to accept the ramifications of that wear?    It would seem the answer is yes.

[Scrappile]

1 hour ago, Bill WIlson said:

The double parallel link design does incorporate a lot of pivot points that are subject to wear.  Despite this, it appears to be the most dominant and popular design in scroll saws today.  The question is, does this design offer other enough benefits to make it more attractive to users, such that they are willing to accept the ramifications of that wear?    It would seem the answer is yes.

I think a lot of that also is to do with price range.  

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Bill WIlson said:

The double parallel link design does incorporate a lot of pivot points that are subject to wear.  Despite this, it appears to be the most dominant and popular design in scroll saws today.  The question is, does this design offer other enough benefits to make it more attractive to users, such that they are willing to accept the ramifications of that wear?    It would seem the answer is yes.

I'm not convinced that people look at the design of how the saw is made as much as they look at the comfort and user friendliness of the saw.. Price pays a huge factor too.. I see many saying they "wish" they could afford a Hegner or Hawk but they settled for a EX or Pegas.. So that being said.. I'm doubtful people are looking at the overall design.. Word of mouth of what others use and advertising plays a huge roll as well... You don't see Hawk and Hegner ads plastered all over our computer screens like you do the others.. You don't see them on Amazon etc either.. 

Most the parallel link arm saws do have a advantage over the long arm saws.. One being the saw body tilts rather than the table and the tilting mechanism is a better design too.. The other thing is the ability to adjust the aggression of the cut... They do not have a harmonic balance issue at certain speeds either.

That said, long arm saws have spring loaded upper arms so when you break a blade or loosen the blade clamp the arm automatically goes up.. Blade chucks come out of the saw so you can preload blades in the extra chucks..

Both have good and not so great points in my opinion and there would be no way to make that one perfect saw.. I will always keep one of each style in my shop since I have that ability to do so.. IF I could only have one and knowing what I do about both I'd stay with a Hawk OR Hegner.. much more precision and just a more relaxing experience to use.. That is just an opinion of coarse.. for the style of cutting I do.. I might say the opposite if I was one to do a lot of angle cutting..  

Edited January 10 by kmmcrafts

[Bill WIlson]

That was kinda the point I was trying to make.  The saw has features that make it very user friendly (including the purchase price, compared to Hegner/Hawk), so indirectly it is the design that attracts them.  My question was, once the cat is out of the bag, so to speak and owners realize the inherent weakness of the double parallel link design, is that enough to sway them to replace it with a Hegner or a Hawk?

I'm only asking because I've recently had those thoughts myself.  When my Excalibur broke down in November, I learned first hand what many others have already found out and has been written about on the scrolling forums for years.  This design is prone to failure of the bearings.  I purchased the EX to replace a Dewalt.  Ironically it was because I thought my Dewalt was getting long in the tooth and I figured it was due for bearing problems.  I never had any problems with it.  I figured the EX was a more commercial grade version of the Dewalt.  I liked how the Dewalt operated and the EX being very similar, there was no learning curve.  I considered Hawk & Hegner at the time, but decided on the EX due to that familiarity.  I'm wondering now if that was a good decision.  I also wonder if any other owners of dual parallel link saws might have similar feelings.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I believe if you ever scrolled on a RBI saw you would never go back to a double link saw of any kind. I still say the RBI saw is the best saw on the market. I owned a Hegner, a Dewalt 788 and a 2 Rbi saw and the 2 RBI saw are the ones I kept and sold the others. price does play a part in decisions. But if you truely want a serious saw that will last then try a RBI saw. You will not regret it. If you are a casual scroller than any saw will do. Sit behind a saw for hours and making it a business and you will change your mind. 

[Rolf]

My thoughts.  I have had my Hawk G4-26 since 2005.  If you look at the Mass from the pivot point forward and compare it to the EX style. saw The EX  has a lot less constantly changing in the vertical direction. I would expect the EX to be smoother. 

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

That was kinda the point I was trying to make.  The saw has features that make it very user friendly (including the purchase price, compared to Hegner/Hawk), so indirectly it is the design that attracts them.  My question was, once the cat is out of the bag, so to speak and owners realize the inherent weakness of the double parallel link design, is that enough to sway them to replace it with a Hegner or a Hawk?

I'm only asking because I've recently had those thoughts myself.  When my Excalibur broke down in November, I learned first hand what many others have already found out and has been written about on the scrolling forums for years.  This design is prone to failure of the bearings.  I purchased the EX to replace a Dewalt.  Ironically it was because I thought my Dewalt was getting long in the tooth and I figured it was due for bearing problems.  I never had any problems with it.  I figured the EX was a more commercial grade version of the Dewalt.  I liked how the Dewalt operated and the EX being very similar, there was no learning curve.  I considered Hawk & Hegner at the time, but decided on the EX due to that familiarity.  I'm wondering now if that was a good decision.  I also wonder if any other owners of dual parallel link saws might have similar feelings.

I don't think so.. most go back to what they know.. not a ton of advertising going on with Hawk or Hegner and also many look at the warranty / service instead of quality.. price point also comes back into play. 

I love my Hawk, Hegner does run a little smoother but then the difference in size / weight of the arms from a 26" Hawk to a 18" Hegner.. I would expect the smaller saw to be a bit smoother. I don't like the smaller table of the Hegner..

 

[rjweb]

Thx for all this info and input, but all in all the I feel the scroll saw doesn't make the scroller. You could have an expensive saw, hawk or hegner, and be good, but someone else with a dewalt will be a better scroller, its the talent of the person scroll sawing, RJ

[Scrappile]

15 minutes ago, rjweb said:

Thx for all this info and input, but all in all the I feel the scroll saw doesn't make the scroller. You could have an expensive saw, hawk or hegner, and be good, but someone else with a dewalt will be a better scroller, its the talent of the person scroll sawing, RJ

Well now you are changing the question... I did not read on here that any of the saws change how good of a scroller you are, that is talent, practice, patience, and perseverance.  No matter where the motor is placed on the saw.  I'm not even sure you asked the question you were looking for an answer to.

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, rjweb said:

Thx for all this info and input, but all in all the I feel the scroll saw doesn't make the scroller. You could have an expensive saw, hawk or hegner, and be good, but someone else with a dewalt will be a better scroller, its the talent of the person scroll sawing, RJ

Yes you are correct.. I started my business with a hand-me-down completely worn out Delta 40-560 type 2 from 1986.. my father bought it new and wore it out twice before giving it to me.. only reason is he wanted a variable speed plus parts was no longer available locally.. this was before internet and finding rare stuff on eBay and the likes.. I rebuilt it sourcing parts online.. While that saw was down I used a Ryobi scroll saw borrowed from my brother that he never used.. I've owned and used and rebuilt many entry level saws while also running the business too.. I worked my way up through many brands until I got up to a deWalt.. great saw for the money BTW as is the Excalibur and many of the others.. I've been down the road of entry level too mid range saws and now have both Hawks and Hegners..

Years ago to save money while trying to build business I would put blades in upside down when the right side up got dull since it only uses half the blade at a time.. and still made quality sellable stuff.. so put that in your pipe and smoke it, LOL That's no lie.. Blades weren't cheap at the hardware store.. before learning that I can get them cheaper and better blades online.. Those Vermont brand blades really sucked.. if you can scroll with those and make a decent project you'll do great once you get some good blades.. I spent the first two years scrolling with that two speed saw and those vermont brand blades.. dull on one end flip it over and use the other end, LOL

The stuff that took me 5 hours to cut back then... I can do now in about 30 - 45 minutes.. so while you can use entry level saws and inferior blades and take your time being careful etc.. you can achieve a good piece out of a crappy saw.. maybe not so quickly.. Kinda the difference of pushing a Ford to town or driving a Jaguar.. both will get you there but one is going to be way faster and more comfortable. 

In my mind a talented scroller will be able to cut with either flat blades or spirals.. blade right side up or upside down.. who cares as long as it cuts.. I haven't been able to achieve cutting on the side with no teeth yet but I'm going to figure that one out someday, most I get is a bunch of smoke  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I have to agree that the question is not if a better saw will make a better scroller. A better saw can make scrolling more pleasurable because it is easier to change blades and less vibration and things like that. But with that said there are people who do not have steady hands and no matter what saw they use will not correct that. Being able to relax at a saw for long periods of time is a plus. The Hegners and Rbi's do not get the press because they are highend production saws and are high $$. But you get what you pay for. The double link saws are all clones of one another. They all could come off the same factory line as far as I am concerned. Not much differences in the designs on them. Bottom line is if the saw is working fine for you than have fun and make some saw dust. 

[BadBob]

14 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I believe if you ever scrolled on a RBI saw you would never go back to a double link saw of any kind. I still say the RBI saw is the best saw on the market.

I had an older RBI Hawk I bought used, and I came to hate it.

[BadBob]

More parts equal more points where something can fail. I don't think where the motor is mounted has much to do with it.

For me, ease of blade changes is a top priority. I had a little AMT cast iron saw for many years, and it never had an issue. I bought a used RBI Hawk and refurbished and upgraded it. It didn't cut any better than the AMT but had a larger capacity. Then I  saw a video demonstrating how easy it was to change the blades in an EX-21, and I had to have one. I found a used EX-21 and loved it. So, if I have to rebuild the saw every couple of years, that's OK with me. I now have an EX-21 and Pegas. The Hawk and the AMT saws are long gone.

[kmmcrafts]

Those older ones with the round barrel style clamps are really fussy with those clamps and tension.. A lot of people hated those.. probably why so many floating around on the marketplace sites.. I hated mine to for the longest time as that was what my first saw was.. It wasn't bad once I learned how to properly insert and tension the blade.. The Ultras aren't as bad but still not nothing like the G-4 and newer saws.. The G-4 and newer saws you don't have to remove the blade clamp from the saw if you don't want to and they made steel blade holders so when a blade breaks you don't have to go find the holder, LOL.. 

Most of the used ones on the market are those round barrel clamp ones with a few Ultras mixed in.. rarely see a G-4 or newer saw on there for sale.. 

[BadBob]

6 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Most of the used ones on the market are those round barrel clamp ones with a few Ultras mixed in.. rarely see a G-4 or newer saw on there for sale.

The old ones are all I ever see within a day's drive of me. I have automated searches running for scrollsaws that should show me anything that pops up within a day's drive. If a bargain popped up on a newer Hawk I would consider giving it a try. It would need to be a bargain price since I am not willing to spend a large amount of money to try one.

[Rolf]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:01 AM, rjweb said:

I was on another forum and a poster said that the scroll saws with the motor in the rear is why they have trouble with the linkage because of the stress on them, compared to like the hegner witch the motor is forward, what are your thoughts on this theory,  RJ

To answer the original ?  I don't thing there is more stress on the parts. The linkage saws have more bearings. Rough count  My Hawk G4 has about has 5 not counting the motor. A monster bearing on the motor, two in the pitman arm and one in each arm pivot.  I think the upper pitman arm is a bushing not a bearing.

My EX-16 has about 18 small bearings. The problem with them has been dry bearings from the factory.  The Dewalts were notorious for it. I have rebuilt 3 EX saws for a couple of friends. The pitman arm bearing was seized completely on one. These saws were not in abusive environments.  They also did not have many hours on them. 

As I writing this I think I need to look at how many hours I have put on my used EX.  Yes I did tear it down when I got it and re-lubed all of the bearings.

 

[Wichman]

I am the original poster on the other board (LJ). And I stand by my opinion. I also stated that if a person needed the tilting head style or the top feeding ( I have bone spurs throughout my neck and upper back, so I can see the advantage ) then to go for it. If you normally cut 1/4" or less, then you will never see the difference between a front or rear mounted motor. If you routinely cut 1" or more hardwood then I believe you will see a difference.

     The only reason I was able to get a Hegner was the retirement bonus I got; I want to cut wood, not get yet another mechanical project to fix up and update, so I went with the brand new largest capacity saw with all the trimmings.

The saw does not make the sawyer. I started with a Sears, 13" throat saw that used 3" pin end blades in a spring loaded holder, and I made some pretty awesome pieces with it. The biggest issue I had with it was that the blade would curve inside an arc if I was to close to a knot in the pine I was using.

Buy what you want and make some sawdust.

P.S. I've never posted this opinion here because I didn't want to start a flame war, we had way to many of those back when WOOD had a forum and in the Google groups (what a mess, that was )

[Jim McDonald]

A more expensive saw makes a minor difference in that it is more solid, easier blades changes, etc. 

I started with a single speed Delta from a pawn shop, moved to a Hitchai, then a Dewalt and now a Pegas. The first two were purchased solely on price and immediate availability. The last two were a combination of price and reputation. 

Each change had something better or easier than the previous. But, was the saw better--or was I getting better?

I did have the Dewalt apart a few times lubing bearings and adjusting the tension rod.

Edited January 14 by Jim McDonald
Added "saw" to first line.

[BadBob]

7 hours ago, Wichman said:

The saw does not make the sawyer.

+1

[Roberta Moreton]

My 788 ain’t fancy. I can top or bottom feed. I can change the blade without tools or adapters. If I have major problems, I can replace it at a reasonable price. I had a chance to buy a Hawk for $600, I passed. 

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, Roberta Moreton said:

My 788 ain’t fancy. I can top or bottom feed. I can change the blade without tools or adapters. If I have major problems, I can replace it at a reasonable price. I had a chance to buy a Hawk for $600, I passed. 

The G4 and newer ( 2005+) Hawks you do not need to remove the blade holders and they also top or bottom feed. Lots of changes with both Hawk and Hegner over the years of their existence even though the saws look so similar to the older ones. Those newer Hawks also have a adjustable blade aggression.. 

But I do agree, those DeWalts are a great saw for the money, I ran one for 6 years before getting that first Hawk and I'd have kept it if the deal on the Excalibur hadn't showed up. I like the DeWalt stand and nice large table better than the Ex. Also like the stand on the Hegner better than the EX or Hawk, LOL.. 

[Scrappile]

These theads almost make me feel like someone wants me to justify why I have a Hegner.  Not sure why.  But I do not feel the need.  My hegner will be with me as long as I can scroll. I'm very happy with it.  Enough said.